The News Vault

Shock and Outrage as Dog Fatally Injured Live on TV

A greyhound protection group was inundated with calls from concerned viewers after a dog was fatally
injured at Belle Vue Stadium during a race broadcast live by Sky Sports.

The greyhound, a 2 year old male, called Frisby Foreman, fell badly during the 8pm race last Tuesday
and was carried from the track in agony.

After receiving dozens of calls from viewers, Greyhound Action investigated the incident and has now
learned that the dog, who was racing for the first time at Belle Vue, sustained a broken shoulder
and was subsequently “put down” by a vet.

Following the incident, the group has renewed it’s calls for an end to greyhound racing at Belle Vue
and for the public to totally boycott the dog racing industry.

Greyhound Action’s UK Co-ordinator, Tony Peters, said: “Last Tuesday evening our office received
dozens of calls from people who’d been watching the greyhound racing on Sky Sports and were shocked
at seeing a dog fall very badly during the 8pm race at Belle Vue.

“We immediately contacted one of our investigators, who has discovered that the greyhound, a 2 year
old male, called Frisby Foreman, broke his shoulder as a result of the fall, was carried from the
track in agony and was subsequently ‘put down’ by a vet.

“Sadly, such horrific injuries to racing greyhounds are all too common and we are often contacted by
members of the public who have witnessed them.

“Thousands of injuries to racing greyhounds occur every year, many of them serious. The main reason
for this is that the shape of the tracks, with fast straights leading into tight bends, creates a
very dangerous environment for dogs to run in.

“Because track owners fear they will lose money through racing being called off, races are quite
often run in unsuitable conditions, which increase the risk of injuries to the dogs. This appears to
have been the case last Tuesday, where the racing was allowed to continue during torrential rain.

“The injury to Frisby Foreman was obviously serious, but we would question the decision to put him
down. Broken shoulders in greyhounds can be repaired and they can go on to live long and happy lives
afterwards.

“Obviously, such a dog would no longer be any good for racing, which is why we believe that Frisby
Foreman’s life was ended for commercial reasons, rather than out of genuine concern for his
well-being.

“Sadly, even less serious injuries, which spectators may not be aware of, can still end up being
lethal, as greyhounds are often “put down”, if it’s considered to be not worth the money to get them
fit for racing again.

“Ex-racing greyhounds often suffer considerably in later life because of the unnatural stresses and
strains imposed on their bodies through racing on the tracks.

“Even more serious than the large number of injuries to racing dogs is the fact that many thousands
of greyhounds get put to death every year, simply because they are considered not good enough for
racing.

Our latest research indicates that over 15,000 greyhounds are “put down” annually after being judged
unsuitable to race on British tracks or when their racing “careers” come to an end, either through
age or injury.

“This means that each of Britain’s 29 major dog tracks, including Belle Vue is, on average,
responsible for the deaths of more than 500 greyhounds annually.

“According to an RSPCA statement ‘at least 20 greyhounds a day – either puppies which do not make
the track, or retired dogs aged three or four – simply disappear, presumed killed’.

“In recent years, national media exposés have highlighted the wholesale slaughter of ex-racing
greyhounds and several mass graves containing the bodies of shot greyhounds have been discovered in
various parts of the country.

“In 2006 the Sunday Times carried a story about large numbers of greyhounds, including many from
Belle Vue, being put to death for £30 a time at a so-called “Dogs Home” in Leigh.

“There are local greyhound rescue groups, who do excellent work in finding homes for some of the
dogs that ‘retire’ from racing at the stadium, but this only amounts to a minority of the greyhounds
disposed of because of the existence of the Belle Vue track.

“Greyhound racing also causes the death of many thousands of other dogs apart from greyhounds, as
places in homes and rescue kennels, which could go to other stray and ‘unwanted’ dogs, are taken up
by greyhounds got rid of by the racing industry, meaning that those other dogs are ‘put down’
because there is nowhere for them to go.

“The rules of the National Greyhound Racing Club, the body that controls dog racing at Belle Vue and
Britain’s other major tracks, encourage greyhounds to be treated as disposable commodities, by
allowing racing owners to get rid of dogs, including having them put to death, once they are no
longer of use for racing.

“Greyhound Action believes that the only real solution to this horrific state of affairs is for
commercial greyhound racing to be ended. Six states in the USA have banned greyhound racing in
recent years, so there is no reason why a ban shouldn’t be imposed in the UK.

“In the meantime it is important to educate the public to boycott greyhound racing. If enough people
refrained from attending greyhound racing and stopped betting on races, then the activity would die
out through lack of support.

“Our local supporters demonstrate and distribute leaflets every Saturday evening out side Belle Vue,
as part of their campaign to end dog racing at the stadium.

“This latest horrific incident will, without doubt, cause them to redouble their efforts to end
commercial greyhound racing in Manchester.”

For more information, contact Tony Peters on 01562 700 043 or 07703 558724.
See also the Greyhound Action website at www.greyhoundaction.org.uk

xxx
153 Comments

153 Comments

  1. Trudy Baker

    October 16, 2008 at 8:10 am

    Frisby Foreman who, despite earning thousands of pounds profit for the bookmakers during his short ‘career’ of only 13 races, was rewarded in his hour of need with a lethal injection.

    As 1000’s upon 1000’s of greyhounds are year after year.

    Run free Frisby Foreman October 2006 – October 7th 2008

  2. Mark Johnson

    October 16, 2008 at 8:11 am

    Here we go again, the greyhound racing ‘industry’ putting a dog to sleep simply because it is too much of a financial burden with regard veterinary expenses to repair injuries, and the obvious lack of ability to race thereafter.

    What a sick and perverted ‘sport’ this is, when living creatures can just be discarded and thrown away, destroyed, like an old packet of crisps which have passed their sell by date.

    But Frisby Foreman, being just 2 years old, was only just finding his way in life. Now, due to the financial greed of those involved in this sport, Frisby has joined the many thousands of other racers who are no longer ‘fit for what is required of them’. Regardless of his injury, if the owner had been decent and responsible with an ounce of compassion, then Frisby would have been treated to the best of ability, and found a loving retirement home via one of the excellent welfare organisations who specialise in this work.

    But no, it is decided much more worthwhile to all involved to just put Frisby to sleep and move on with getting more racers up and going.

    Its a very sad state of affairs, and one which i personally find disgusting. The dog racing industry is suffering all over the country, and well they may; if this is an example of their after race care and attention for an animal then their industry deserves to go into terminal decline, which it is and will continue to do.

    Compassion to animals costs nothing except what the beholder has; an obvious missing trait in so many of the racing industry. “No good, not worth keeping, then destroy it”, should be the motto of the greyhound racing industry.

    Every circuit and stadium which goes down the pan is another good day as far as I am concerned.

  3. Wendy Hassell

    October 16, 2008 at 9:26 am

    I cannot understand how people can want to pay to watch greyhounds run around a track, often incurring severe, painful injuries and in this case and many more, lose their lives, when you could have your own beautiful hound loafing on your sofa at home. Much, much more satisfying.

    Greyhound racing is a killer. It can and often fatally wounds greyhounds. Choose life over death and adopt one.

  4. Dave Garland

    October 16, 2008 at 9:57 am

    Yet another victim of this filthy vile industry

  5. Sarah

    October 16, 2008 at 11:02 am

    How sad; such a waste of a young life. Surely some small portion of the profits he had earned could be directed to vet care? Frisbee Foreman could have made a wonderful family pet, but sadly never had the chance of a sofa of his own.

    Run free little one.

    I would love to see an end to this cruel pseudo-sport, but if it is to remain legal, surely money must be put aside for proper vetinary care?

  6. M Watkins

    October 16, 2008 at 11:11 am

    Another victim of this sick and vile industry. There are too many injuries on the tight tracks, many are kept in poor cramped conditions and exploited to the end.

    RIP Frisby Foreman – 2 years old.

  7. Val Wolf

    October 16, 2008 at 12:44 pm

    When animals are used to make money the results are never good….The time to put and end to Greyhound racing is long overdue.

  8. S Hunt

    October 16, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    What a waste of such a young hounds life, all down to money and not being bothered to pay for treatment. Put down the ba**ards who run these dogs. Ban this barbaric sport once and for all.

  9. Greyhound Watch

    October 17, 2008 at 7:26 am

    This is the second greyhound from the same kennel to be destroyed in recent months following injury (the other greyhound having sustained a wrist fracture whilst competing at Sheffield). Needless to say, all greyhound tracks are dangerous but there has been much discussion amongst trainers and owners regarding the very high rate of injuries at Belle Vue during 2008. It has lead one trainer to state: “I must admit to it being the worst 10 months I’ve ever come across.”

  10. C Bush

    October 17, 2008 at 8:42 am

    To those of us who have acquired the knowledge of what our majestic Greyhound are used for in the U.K., not a day must pass by without us, sharing their truth. We are the educators of largely, an unaware public as to the sinful acts perpetrated on our beloved dogs by the racing industry. The more who hear, the sooner closure will ensue on the ‘greyhound killing industry’.

  11. D Hilsley

    October 20, 2008 at 1:20 am

    I race greyhounds and also hate it when a dog is PTS but sometimes the injury is too severe. I have a dog at home with me who broke his leg in a race. It was heartbreaking to see him break down on the track, but the kennel lads were so incredibly quick in getting him off the track and to the vets, that his suffering was minimal. After a very nice vets bill and 3 months recouperation with the very best of care, he now happily runs around my garden or the local field. I still have 3 greyhounds racing and they get the very best of care and also will have a loving home when they retire.

  12. Dave Smith

    October 20, 2008 at 2:43 am

    I have raced dogs for 23 years,my dogs get the best of everything,they probably eat better than some people,i am not interested in the money side,i rarely bet and its the thrill of winning that inspires me,i run the biggest greyhound forum in the uk http://www.greyhoundscene.co.uk feel free to join ,read the posts,and then tell me again if you think the vast majority of our 5000+ members are anything other than dog lovers,please stop being brainwashed by these lies.
    I asure you anyone in our community who does not do right by their dogs is reviled more by us than anyone.

  13. D Hilsley

    October 20, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    Trudy
    None of my dogs have been PTS due to track injuries and never would, unless of course it was in the dogs very best interest, to which I would be absolutely devastated but then again my feelings always come second to my hounds.
    Rover retired at 4 1/2 years old and came straight home to me. I was inconsolable last March when he very suddenly became ill and it was found he was riddled with cancer . He was PTS whilst still under anaesthetic 4 days after showing me the 1st symptoms of his illness. He was only 7 1/2 years old.
    I also lost Lady 8 weeks ago to cancer, £ 1300.00 was my total vets bill trying to find out exactly what was wrong with her. She was only 7 years old and we adored her. We retired her at 2 1/2 years old after she had a hock injury which we had repaired (£ 800.00) and then decided we didn’t want her to race anymore.
    I have spoken about Treasure ( I forgot to mention the £1500.00 vets bill )in my previous post and he is lying next to me as I type. 2 weeks ago I took on a retired bitch who my trainer was looking after because her owners couldn’t take her home .
    We did have a youngster ( unraced ) who became seriously ill and depite numerous trips to vets he then had severe internal bleeding. We did everything we could for him. In the end we had him PTS, it would have been unkind to him not to have let him go. I have 3 greyhounds still racing who are in wonderful conditition, but then again if people were to see my trainers kennels and the way she cares for all the dogs including ALL her own retired ones I think they possibly would be somewhat ashamed of the way their own dogs are kept . Have you ever been into a kennel of 30 dogs and seen them all wagging their tails, so very happy to see you ?
    Trudy, I hope this answers your question but please feel free to ask more, I will always answer honestly.

    Ryan
    Greyhounds bred to do what they love ~ running.
    Pit Bulls being bred to rip the **** out of another pitbull .
    It is hardly the same. I watched the Panorama report on dog fighting and was sickened.

  14. Carol Jameson

    October 20, 2008 at 6:22 am

    I have to say that i’m totally on the side of those people who race their hounds. Injurues do appear to happen but these creatures are bred for the sport and the vast majority are loved and cared for greatly. In retrospect I have been witness to the vile behaviour of some anti racing protesters outside of various stadiums. I have seen innocent men , women and children being verball abused , assaulted and spat at by these so called protesters. Who is in the wrong ?

  15. J Thompson

    October 20, 2008 at 7:35 am

    So we have all the Anties coming out of the wood work with no idea.

    Very sad that the dog was put down, it happens some times very rear.

    To the people that call me a bastard and other nasty names with out knowing me because I race Greyhounds and love the SPORT and the dog involved.

    My story on the first dog I owned.

    AMERISH

    Cost me in 1991 £850

    Made me no money at all after charges from the trainer.

    Gave me 3 years of pleasure

    Was injured at 5 years of age, thank god not a fatal injure, and retiered.

    LOVE the sport LOVE the breed and am not scum like some of you people say.

    Galty

    Came home and was put down at 15 years of age to cancer.

  16. chris mcgrady

    October 20, 2008 at 8:12 am

    do some of u realise that for the vast majority of greyhound owners make no money from the sport, and love and care for our pets,in a way some of u vile and lothsome folks who know nothing about greyhound raceing and also would not know the truth if it smacked u in the face.I have been in greyhounds for 10 years and have only had 1 greyhound pts after brakeing down on the track it broke my heart but we could not save him .all the rest have been rehomed by me ,as well as haveing one at home for 6 years.maybe if some of u had some thing in your sad lifes you might let us get on with ours.

  17. Trudy Baker

    October 20, 2008 at 8:12 am

    Hi Di and Dave
    Perhaps you could both tell us how many of your dogs that have been injured and of those, how many had to be euthanased because their injury was ‘uneconmical’ to treat and well within NGRC rules.

  18. D Hill

    October 20, 2008 at 9:21 am

    Let me just say, you people are pathetic! You know absolutely NOTHING about the sport, which is what it is, a SPORT! All these figures you bounce about are unbelievable and only stupid ignorant people would believe such nonsense. Dogs are bred for the sport, hardly any money is made by owners through the sport and it is only treated as a hobby by most. The suggestion that dogs are put down because they cannot race again and are not profitable is utter drivel. Why don’t you mention the figures which state how many dogs are rehomed after an injury to have very happy retired lives? Before you sad, pathetic people make judgement, get the facts first!

  19. Ryan O'Meara

    October 20, 2008 at 9:30 am

    D Hill. You make a very weak argument, very weak. Personally I know very little about the ‘sport’ of dog fighting and yet I know enough to entitle me to object to it. Your attitude and position is not much of an endorsement for the ‘sport’ you seem to be at pains to defend.

  20. mark walsh

    October 20, 2008 at 10:54 am

    come on you all need to get a life why the hell you going on about greyhounds for .why dont you moan about other none greyhound breeds like other dogs .have you nothing better to do with your lives .greyhounds are properly treated and belle vue is a lovely track to run around so why slate it .get a life and moan about something else .

  21. Joe Koller

    October 20, 2008 at 11:51 am

    I too have been a dog owner for many years and contrary to popular belief the vast majority of us care for our dogs and are heartbroken if anything happenes to them on the track.

    I have spent thousands of pounds on vets fees for operations for dogs who have not raced again and I know of many other owners like me who have done the same to give the dog the chance of a happy retirement.

    Most recently a bitch we owned very badly broke a front leg and there were bones sticking out everywhere when she was carried from the track. The bitch was sent to one of the best veterinary surgeons in the country who operated the next day and saved her and reconstructed the leg. The bill was over £2k and we knew straight away there was no chance of her racing again. She has since been rehomed with a loving family, but of course you don’t want to know about stories like this as it disproves the extremist views branded about by Greyhound Action.

    In addition I have ensured that every dog I have owned has been rehomed after their racing career is over.It is a great pity that if greyhound action care so much about greyhounds as they spout, that they didn’t devote some of their energies into helping the various greyhound charities rehome retired racers.

    In addition I believe that some of the literature they put around is not representative of the British greyhound industry as some of the pictures they use in their literature were taken in Spain!

  22. Mr.B.Scase

    October 20, 2008 at 11:52 am

    i have raced greyhounds for over 40 years and my grandfather before me to my knowledge none of our dogs has suffered in the way you lot say they do , i have bought greyhounds ,i have bred greyhounds , and any injury or illness they are to the vets within 30 minutes if they are injured on the track the track vet who may i add is a proper regitered vet looks at them , i will save a dog whatever the injury if it can be saved at whatever cost , i race greyhounds for pleasure not for profit as you suggest , you are all the same dont know what you are talking about and if your figures stand up then their wouldnt be any greyhounds to race .

  23. Roger Taylor

    October 20, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    Hi,
    It would appear that this site and the above article is giving a very one sided view of greyhound racing now whether that is by design or ignorance I am not sure.Yes it is very regretable when a dog has to be PTS but in this case you have completely condemed the action without knowing the full facts for instance was the dog suffering,how bad was the injury could it be saved,I know the vet at Belle Vue will not have taken the decision lightly,none of you know her but you are ready to condem her actions based on if’s,but’s or maybes.

    Greyhounds are breed to run,they are breed to hunt,they are not breed to be couch potatoes,my dogs are better cared for than any pet,they are fed on proper food not the processed crap that most pets are fed on and are all in top condition.A few weeks ago I passed the demonstraters out side Belle Vue,they had a greyhound with them,it looked totally unfit,overweight,and looked terrified as it’s owners were confronting ordinary people on a night out,you tell me who has the welfare of their greyhound at heart.

    Yes I do agree that some people within the sport do not treat the dogs as they should but are there not bad apples in every walk of life,the greyhound industry is cleaning up its act,and there are far more good,caring owners and trainers than there are bad apples,why don’t you ever give those people any credit and try to help them enjoy this great sport,whilst trying to weed out the bad apples.

  24. Keith Woodhead

    October 20, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    I would just like to reply to the Greyhound watch post on the 17th October. I think they have again got thier facts wrong. They say one Belle Vue trainer said this is the worst 10 months for injuries. Where the hell did they get this statement from? Well I’ll tell you. It was taken from a post I put on the Belle Vue forum. I am an owner of dogs that race at Belle Vue, not a trainer. I have also posted on another thread that I believe Belle Vue to be one of, if not the safest running surface in the country. Dogs are athletes, and like athletes, can pull and damage muscles,tendons, and ligaments. I have always had the best treatment given to all my Greyhounds, both racing and retiered. So please for the sake of the greyhounds please get your facts right Grehound Watch.

  25. Amanda Wells

    October 20, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    I’m completely failing to see exactly where in the article those ‘lies’ are printed? A dog was so severely injured that it had to be destroyed. As with all the other greyhounds who suffer such injuries and death each year in the name of “sport”.

    Time those within the industry learned some honesty and admitted its about THEIR enjoyment – not the dogs. There may be more respect if those within stopped denying there is a huge problem.

    And my own experience of pro-greyhound racing websites are they far from show how reasonable and caring owners are. Especially when they actively encourage people to break the law – in particular the Telecommunications Act.

    I encourage people who question the integrity of those involved to view the racing forums – the best part is when you hear comments such as “my dogs eat steak”, or my personal favourite “he wouldn’t know one end of a greyhound to another”. What such things have to do with the mass over breeding and subsequent mass dumping/slaughter of greyhounds I will never understand.

    This “sport” will sink – there is little doubt about that. Sadly it won’t be quick enough to stop other hounds dying for individual selfish whims.

  26. Tom Jowett

    October 20, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    As early as the third sentence we spot errors in the original report!

    After receiving dozens of calls from viewers, Greyhound Action investigated the incident (WRONG! HAD THEY INVESTIGATED PROPERLY THEY WOULD HAVE DISCOVERED THE TRUE EXTENT OF THE DOG’S INJURY) and has now
    learned that the dog, who was racing for the first time at Belle Vue, sustained a broken shoulder (WRONG AGAIN! ANYBODY WITH AN OUNCE OF KNOWLEDGE OF DOGS WOULD KNOW THAT THE SHOULDER IS A REPAIRABLE BONE SURROUNDED BY MUSCLE) and was subsequently “put down” by a vet.

    Journalistic licence? Is that the latest excuse for blatent head-line-grabbing lies?

  27. Amanda Wells

    October 20, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    In response to Roger who has one of the few logical pro-racing posts that doesn’t just set out to ‘attack’ and come out with the same old “scum” comments which I think some new original ones are needed because those comments are past their sell-by date and don’t make me laugh the same anymore!

    Anyway Roger, I would hope the track vet took the best course of action for that dog however a vet is instructed by the owner or bill-payer of the animal and will act according to the owners wishes in looking at the options. The vet would have probably given the owner/bill payer the choice – pts or amputation, pinning whatever (I wasn’t there so I don’t know – but what I would think is an accurate assessment). My own dogs attend a greyhound vet – a former track vet, who states that some racing people have ‘no patience’ when it comes to injuries. Knowing this *can* be the case from my own experience, I believe this to be what is meant by this comment in this article – was pts really needed or was it that the treatment would have been very expensive?

    From my perspective (and mine alone) its not sorting out the bad apples that is the issue. Its bigger than that. Take the issue of the sheer numbers of dogs as a stand-alone issue – there’s far too many. No matter what you aren’t going to rehome them all. And to have an industry, you need that many dogs. What is the answer? What kind of welfare reforms would stop this? One issue here – leave out the rest of the politics and issues and personal grievances if you can.

    Moving away from Roger… As for ruining ‘fun’ for people. I have no issue whatsoever with any individual taking up a ‘hobby’ doing whatever they want. I actually don’t care less about what people choose to do to themselves. By all means, the world may be a better place if some take up a ‘high risk’ activity. Do whatever. However if it comes to greyhounds then I WILL speak out for them. I’m’ not sad, no life unemployed soapless type who don’t look after our hounds that you so very generously ‘donated’ to us (please come out with something original!). As very few people involved in campaigner are (or the range of other things some very deluded peole have alleged some people involved get up to!).

    End the ‘rehoming’ (on occasion aka dumping on rescue) and culling and our paths will never cross again. However while this still goes on, there will be objections. By all means, run yourselves round a track and see who wins if thats what gives you ‘fun’ – no objection from me as long as its just you that you hurt.

    I don’t think I need to mention how much pace the campaign has been gathering since the Seaham issue. Something that for many years that pro-racing people claimed was ‘fantasy’ and a ‘lie’. It wasn’t and indeed isn’t. What is important is that the public opinion has started to turn and are, in general, saying this is unacceptable. You may think you are cleaning up your spor. But the fact is its not clean enough and very likely won’t ever be.

    Without a doubt I most definitely care deeply about my hounds. I don’t need to have them. Comments about how better racing dogs are that pets dogs isn’t going to persuade the public to rehome and comments like that aren’t helpful or necessary. After all, none of my hounds (or anyone I know who has hounds) trainers/owners keep in touch to see if they are well cared for or not. Doesn’t that tell you something?

    Actually one did get in touch but that was only to try to get me to take on another three dogs he had that he wanted rid of.

    Donnascase – these arguments you say are constructive really aren’t constructive at all! In fact some of them are really making me cringe because attack isn’t the best way to go about it!

  28. D Hilsley

    October 21, 2008 at 6:59 am

    Trudy
    Did you manage to find out who had abandoned Upton and treated him like this ?
    If so, was anything done ?
    As for separation anxiety, Rover suffered with this but had been at my trainers kennels for 2 1/2 years before I retired him and he was very well looked after and a very happy hound while he was there.Also when he came home to me I already had Lady at home so he wasn’t on his own . What I am saying is that alot of dogs do suffer from separation anxiety which is nothing to do with being badly treated.
    Regards
    Di

  29. Joe Koller

    October 21, 2008 at 3:13 am

    I think Tom has hit the nail on the head.

    The writer DID NOT get the facts right, i.e the extent of the dog’s injury was not known to them when they wrote the article. It seems they just guessed or at best were misinformed by someone else who was not aware of the facts, about the state of the injury.

    Amanda you talk about greyhound owners going onto the attack, well if you read some of the misinformed and inaccurate information the anti brigade spout, then you’d get angry too.

    You talk about owners/trainers not keeping in touch with their retired dogs, often when a dog is rehomed by a charity eg the RGT, it is very difficult to do this. However, I do have contact with – and receive pictures from – some of their new owners and like to know how they are going on.

    I once drove 250 miles to Scotland and back just to do a homecheck and speak to people who were interested in homing one of my ex-racers. I then drove another 250 miles to take the boy up there. He has a wonderful home and is a bit of a celebrity in the town as there are no other greyhounds living locally and all the old ladies don’t have to bend down far to stroke him.

    But again, I reitterate, no-one is interested in all the many thousands of similar success stories which happen annually.

    Now you tell me, that myself and thousands of other greyhound owners don’t care. As in all walks of life there are bad uns, but the many thousands of us who do take the welfare of our animals seriously are being tainted by a small minority who don’t. As for the figures of 15,000 dogs being destroyed each year?? Fantasy, pure fantasy.

  30. Trudy Baker

    October 21, 2008 at 4:59 am

    Roger…..you said

    ‘A few weeks ago I passed the demonstraters out side Belle Vue,they had a greyhound with them,it looked totally unfit,overweight,and looked terrified as it’s owners were confronting ordinary people on a night out,you tell me who has the welfare of their greyhound at heart’

    Well I’ll tell you who has the welfare of the greyhounds at heart……
    The greyhound you saw was a dog called Upton, he was abandoned in the North East in this disgusting condition. This photo of him does him justice in actual fact.
    http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/Jodie_dogsey/Uptonwhenfound.jpg
    Needless to say he was emaciated, flea ridden and full of worms. His skin and coat were in a dreadful condition, bald and scurf and he has a spinal injury which means he will need medication for it for the rest of his life.
    He also suffers with separation anxiety, probably because he had been locked up and left for long periods of time during his ‘career’.
    He follows me around like my shadow, he defecates and urinates whenever he is left without human company, sometimes even if its just a matter of seconds.
    This was Upton when you saw him at Belle Vue………..
    http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/Jodie_dogsey/upton-bellevue-1.jpg
    UNFIT? OVERWEIGHT? TERRIFIED?
    You really have got an absolute nerve….the demonstration that night was peaceful and respectful. Upton was admired by many people going into the stadium and he loved the attention. Despite his previous abuse and neglect, he is an extremely affectionate dog.
    I am Upton’s foster mum but he’s looking for a permanent loving caring home.
    So which one of you who constantly claims to ‘love dogs’ are willing to offer Upton that loving home he so rightfully deserves?
    Or would you need to his track record or need to know his potential as a stud dog before you could consider that!

  31. J Thompson

    October 21, 2008 at 5:34 am

    Amanda

    O dear

    Before I reply somthing I experinced then will ask you to comment on.

    CANTERBUR 2003 dog came out of trap and broke its back, dog put down on the track

    Greyhound action to the best of my knowledge has high lighted only one dog at Perrybar put down at the track, that was 2005.

    Bit like the question of how many dogs have had their ears cut off a left to die.As GA holds a service for RUSTY ever year for the last three years that must be ONE

    The question I ask you and Peters.

    DO you no the exact injury to this dog????????

    Doubt if Peters cares one way ore the other

  32. J Thompson

    October 21, 2008 at 6:12 am

    Think that if K9 wishes to carry on publishing bisas articals like this, true dog lovers should go into the likes of Tescos and put this Mag behind the Porn on the top shelf.

    This has happened in the not to distance past.

  33. Ryan O'Meara

    October 21, 2008 at 7:26 am

    J Thompson wrote: “Think that if K9 wishes to carry on publishing bisas articals like this, true dog lovers should go into the likes of Tescos and put this Mag behind the Porn on the top shelf”

    Sorry, but ‘bisas articals’? If you’re going to criticise our publishing competence, please do better than this. Thanks.

  34. richard newell

    October 21, 2008 at 8:41 am

    My greys love to race. If one of them is racing the others are visibly dissapointed when I leave them behind. Even my 9 year old retired jumps in to the back of the car (given the chance) hoping to go racing and when I fetch her out her face sinks when she knows she isn’t going. If the greys didn’t enjoy racing then you anti’s would have a point but unfortunately greyhounds LOVE to race and that you cannot argue against and by trying to prevent my greys from racing if you ever succeeded which I doubt you will YOU would be the cruel one’s.
    I have had 3 dogs put down in 15 years all on the advice of a qualified vet. I have rehomed over 25 greys, have a 9 year old myself and a couple of pups. Tony Peters writes lies about me and others, he claims I am a breeder in Ireland, I have bred one litter in my life. I am a hobby breeder. Peters edits what people say on pro forums without any permission. He is lieing to try and prevent my dogs racing, my greys love racing and if they didn’t I wouldn’t race them.

  35. Joe Koller

    October 21, 2008 at 8:47 am

    I have no problem with people protesting peacefully, its a free country. However why don’t they do it on the opposite side of the road, so that people who wish to enter Belle Vue can do so without being accosted? They can still have their banners and photographs there and will get their point across to those who wish to listen.

    Problem is many entering the track don’t wish to listen,yet are still accosted, because the protestors won’t take “no thank you” for an answer.

  36. Amanda Wells

    October 21, 2008 at 10:15 am

    Joe. I wouldn’t like to tell you how many miles I’ve travelled to pick up hounds, homecheck, drop off, part transport in relays, back up visits etc. It must amount to thousands. Difference is that they aren’t my dogs although I take responsibility for them. If you do this, then good. But I shouldn’t be congratulating you on doing what I believe EVERY owner should be doing this at a minimum. (I actually think if you race them, you keep them for life but that is fantasy!) But they aren’t. Because if they were, people like me wouldn’t be running up and down the country and all over the place. My farthest away hound is in Kent, although I have hounds placed all over England and Scotland.

    As for keeping in touch. Every single last dog I have rehomed, I know where it is and how its getting on. I have taken that responsibility. All of these dogs are on data. All of these dogs have either mine or the new owners email address attached. As I said before, only one has ever bothered to get in touch and that was to try to manipulate (and please don’t think about disputing the word manipulate) me into taking three of his other dogs. From my experience and my many contacts within the rescue world, you are the exception not the norm, sadly.

    The success stories I hear are the ones who have had a bad time of it (like Trudy’s Upton) who gets over their issues and becomes a fantastic pet dog. I fail to see why on earth we should be celebrating success stories of someone who has raced a dog taking responsibility. And that is because some of these ‘successes’ lead to dumping in over stretched rescue. I don’t think that is acceptable.

    I actually am always very reluctant to discuss figures. However if you say 15,000 are ‘fantasy’, how many do you think there are each year?

    Hey Galty! Thats what I’m trying to ask in a round about way – what was the exact injury? Do you know? (and thanks for not saying I don’t care!). We have a list of injuries on track on our website somewhere but its way out of date. Our website hasn’t been updated since 2006 but I’m working on all our recent research to get on hopefully by the end of the year and we’ll relaunch it then. Injuries have been low on my list of priorities until relatively recently. Will let you know when the website is uploaded and you can let me know how bad you think it is!

    D. My own experience is that if you try to get something done or find out who did it you find closed doors and closed ears. One piece of advice I was given was ‘think yourself lucky and go get on with it’. Trying to get anything done about any hound which is in a bad way is near impossible and I think most rescues would tell you they don’t even try anymore. Plus its so difficult to juggle that research and subsequent barriers you have when you are banging your head against a brick wall. I think thats the reasoning behind Tia’s Wall of Shame which has been much slated by racing people – which I really am at a loss to understand why that is the case. Sad but thats what we’re up against.

    Agree re SA issues – think the biggest issue is that hounds tend to be kept in groups in kennels, then all of a sudden you are taking them out of the kennel environment into the home. Bound to be confusing for them given you have a mature dog and you are taking it out of the only world it knows. One of mine wasn’t badly treated as such (if you exclude the coke) but has very bad SA and can’t be parted from my bitch at all otherwise he tears the house up. A lot of issues relate to hounds being kenneled all their lives then if they are lucky, rehomed but I have to say the SA part has to be the most common.

  37. mrs donna scase

    October 21, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    amanda wells, i think the only way to get through to you antis is to do like you constantly do attack our industry just remember christmas is coming so how many so called pets will be thrown out after christmas lets just see what the figures are as compared to racing dogs injured or thrown out or is that an argument you antis do not want to hear , what about the person who got beaten up by your lot you dont mention that anywhere .

  38. Trudy Baker

    October 21, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    Richard……. 🙂

    Greyhounds are born racers, unfortunately the industry breeds them and then schools/trains them to chase.
    Those that don’t chase or are too slow are ‘disposed’ of.

    All 13,628 of them in Ireland last year. All 13,628 funded partly by the EU under various schemes and enjoyed by Irish breeders.

    You never did respond to my calculations, so here they are again.
    Proof that greyhounds are not natural born chasers!

    From information obtained under the Freedom of Information act, the Irish Greyhound Board states there were 4,038 litters born in Ireland during 2007.
    The British Greyhound Racing Board states ‘bitches whelp a manageable sized litter of between six and ten’ therefore, by the industry’s own admission, there are an average of 8 puppies per litter and not 6.4.
    http://www.thedogs.co.uk/index.php?m=sid&id=4
    This would amount to 32,304 (4,038 litters x 8) puppies being bred in Ireland during 2007.

    Again, from Information obtained under FOI, the Irish Greyhound Board have stated that of the 32,304 (4038 litters x 8) puppies bred in Ireland only 22,727 then went on to be earmarked at 16 weeks. Amounting to a fall out of just under 10,000 puppies or nearly a third that failed to make it to the age of four months.

    We do not know, as yet, how many of these earmarked puppies born last year, will fail to make it to the grade or tracks as many of them, at less than 15 months, are still too young to race.

    However, if we use the figures for breeding during 2006 we can see how many then go on to qualify for racing in 2007.

    The Irish Greyhound Board figures show of the 34,544 ( 4,318 litters x 8) puppies bred in Ireland during 2006, only 23,618 were later earmarked in 2006 and only 20,916 were given Identity Cards making them ‘eligible to qualify for racing in Ireland’ the following year – 2007.
    This does not mean that 20,916 went on to contest a race, as many thousands of greyhounds, although ‘eligible to qualify for racing in Ireland’ do not make the grade during trials and are ‘disposed’ of as they then become a financial liability.

    So by using ‘official industry figures’ we can calculate that only 60% of Irish bred puppies are actually ‘eligible to register for racing in Ireland’ at the age of 15 months or older.
    In theory, this would calculate to 400 puppies in every 1,000 unaccounted for, which in 2007, amounts to more than 13,600 puppies, presumably disposed.
    Again, these 13,600 ‘disposed’ puppies do NOT include those who will fail to make the grade during trials.
    http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/Jodie_dogsey/?action=view&current=IGB_FOI_request.jpg

    Again, please could someone tell me why the ICC recorded 12,819 transfers and the NGRC claim less than 10,000 were registered onto the tracks in 2007. What happened to the surplus Irish greyhounds and those bred in Britain?

  39. mrs donna scase

    October 21, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    trudy baker, what do you mean by disposed of

  40. Amanda Wells

    October 21, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    Impressive research, Trudy. I do expect you’ll be told you are living in this ‘fantasy’. However I want to counteract this by asking if anyone who denies these figures has their own? Constructive arguments instead of just labels?

    Donna. I can assure you neither I, nor anyone involved in the Scottish campaign, has EVER assaulted anyone. We do not have criminal records. If need be, I can prove this to you however past experience is you would rather stay mudslinging and coming up with all sorts of theories (like accusations of being child abusers – for gods sake!!!) which can only confirm that you feel threatened which is a good place for those who want an end to greyhound racing to be. Quite flattering actually. Apologies if that disappoints you but please, change the record and the terminology – ‘anti’s’ – I ask you!

    And if you’d cared to ask, I do work with other dogs/issues apart from greyhounds. Has it ever occured to you that perhaps if there were less dumped greyhounds in rescue, there would be more room for dumped other breeds which would mean that they could drastically reduce the numbers of non-greyhounds put to sleep each year?

    Howeer thats not the issue. I have a passion for greyhounds, as you do. Difference is they are pets to me and will stay with me for the rest of their lives.

  41. John Gadd

    October 21, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    I am a owner of both retired and racing dogs and find it an honour to be a part of their lives and also a part of the racing industry, there are a few points i would like to make about all the points made.

    It was hearbreaking and devastating that Frisby Foreman had to be pts, my sympathys are with the owners and the trainer of this young dog, and although i agree that the said injury could have possibly been repaired, at what cost would this have been to the dog?, this is without a doubt a horrificaly painful injury and frisby would have been suffering terribly from the pain and shock. Even if it had been possible to operate he would have suffered immense pain for a considerable time, even after the operation his quality of life would have been severely affected, which leads to my next point.

    GREYHOUNDS LOVE TO RUN, my back garden (140 ft) has a perfect “race track” shape created by my dogs at home. I can not argue with the fact that they love their comfort but they love to run more, I walked my old boy down to collect my kids from school, as soon as he hear the bell ring (an old fashioned hand bell) he went mad, jumping around like a 2 year old thinking he was going to race again, stopping these dogs doing what they are bred for is cruelty itself.

    For every “cruelty” case the “antis” report there are stories of success and happy hounds and owners to outweigh it, unfortunatley these are never published, as Dave Smith said on an earlier post many of these can be read on greyhound scene, the crux of the problem is that people who back and believe the “antis” do not want to hear any stories of success and joy but have this sick facination to try and bring down an entire industry of good, honest, dog loving people who genuinely love their sport and their animals over facts and figures that have been conjured out of their heads to make people believe their propaganda.

    I and the rest of the industry are aware that unfortunatley on occasion there are some that think they are above the sport and act in an unforgivable and cruel manner towards animals in their care and this is inexcusable, but do not tar us all with the same brush, we love our dogs and the sport. Im sure i speak for the majority of people directly involved (trainers, owners etc), and also those indirectly involved (enjoy a GREAT night out at local track), geryhound racing is NOT crel and NOT evil, a dog would not run if it did not want to and believe me if they dont want to run they wont.

    Get your facts right and watch these beautiful animals in action for yourself and see how much they do enjoy it before you judge.

  42. Trudy Baker

    October 21, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    Oooops….looks very sunny on my posting. Hahaha
    Please replace the ‘cool’ 8) with the number 8.
    Gracias muchos.

  43. D Hilsley

    October 22, 2008 at 2:10 am

    Trudy
    An awful lot of pro greyhound racing people also think there are far too many litters being born each year. The way forward is licensed breeders only. Perhaps that’s what the anti groups could be concentrating on more.

    Amanda
    Don’t bury your head in the sand, find out who owned the abused dog and name and shame and don’t give up.
    I love to watch my dogs race and will continue to do so but I cannot stand any form of abuse of any animal.
    As far as the SA more dog owners need to be educated about how dogs think and why they do things. I have been reading up on dog psychology for the last 3 + years after learning about “dog whispering ” and wanting to learn more, maybe that’s why my new retired bitch acts as though she has been with me for years intead of 2 weeks.

  44. Joe Koller

    October 22, 2008 at 12:14 am

    But again, Trudy you are quoting figures that are not accurate.

    You are using an average figure of eight per litter and then quoting that 10,000 go missing between birth and earmarking. Unless you have ACTUAL figures of registered litters then just like your correspondent over the dog’s injury, you are only GUESSING.

    I know of many owners who’ve bred litters of two, three or four and others who’ve had litters of 10. The difference is that in the larger litters they have lost at least one pup in the first few days. I bred from a bitch I owned and the first litter of eight were all healthy and all made the track. The second litter of seven were decimated at between two and three weeks by a virus and heartbreakingly only one pup survived.Whilst this situation is not exactly common, I should imagine it does from time to time occur and together with the loss rate from the bigger litters, it would account for some of the difference between birth rates and earmarking. However again your figure of 10,000 is only a GUESS and most certainly wide of the mark, unless you have accurate figures it is impossible to comment with any certainty.

    However, no doubt for effect you will quote the largest INACCURATE figure you can get away with, of course the larger the better for your literature.

    You haven’t either commented upon the way you carry out your demonstrations. Supposedly peaceful, but I have witnessed people, including people with children being harranged and harrased by your activists outside Belle Vue, which to me is unacceptable. Protest, by all means, that’s your right, but accept that not everyone wants to listen to your biased and hugely distorted view of the industry.

    Amanda, I can assure you that I am not the exception with regards to re-homing my ex-racers. There are many of us who undertake similar to find good and loving homes for our dogs, but hey that doesn’t fit into your stereotypical view of the uncaring greyhound owner who wants the dog for gambling purposes only and then simply disposes of it when its racing days are over does it?

    Yet another example of how you misrepresent the greyhound industry and twist the facts to suit your own purposes.

  45. richard newell

    October 22, 2008 at 2:03 am

    Trudy “Again, please could someone tell me why the ICC recorded 12,819 transfers and the NGRC claim less than 10,000 were registered onto the tracks in 2007. What happened to the surplus Irish greyhounds and those bred in Britain?”

    Have you not heard of independant racing “flapping” I think that accounts for your false figures.

    Greyhounds naturally chase. From the moment my pups popped their heads out of their whelping kennel they were chasing birds, leaves blowing in the wind, rats, anything that moved they chased.

    I took a greyhound racing last night and you could visibly see the pre-race anticipation and the excitement at the pick up tail wagging like crazy. Why can’t you accept that greys LOVE to RACE? After her efforts last night she is bouncing this morning and if she could drive I think she’d be half way to the track by now ready for another spin, it’s a shame you want to stop that as she LOVES to RACE!

    Have you ever considered what would happen to the greyhounds if you succeeded in banning racing? The anti-brigade would be the direct cause of thousands of greys being destroyed just as many fox hounds were destroyed when fox hunting was banned.

    No doubt you’ll keep on talking rubbish, continue to publicise false figures that are NOT FACT, continue to herass and abuse innocent bystanders and industry employees with violence and criminal behaviour, continue to spread malicious lies about innocent law abiding citizens and continue to deny that greys LOVE to RACE!

  46. tom

    October 22, 2008 at 6:05 am

    Amanda

    Looks like you dont accept like me the word of Peters that the dog broke a shoulder.

    As a close colleague of his you do understand the SPIN he puts on things.

    Galty

  47. M Watkins

    October 22, 2008 at 7:41 am

    What about Topaz that had to be PTS atfer breaking is hock at Belle Vue in August

    Let another victim of Belle Vue

  48. Dave Jones

    October 22, 2008 at 9:22 am

    Can anyone tell me how many dogs have been PTS or injured at Belle Vue in the last year, as there seems to be a problem with this track and the racing industry.

  49. Joe Koller

    October 22, 2008 at 11:12 am

    What exactly do you mean by injury Mr Jones? Do you mean injury as in unable to run again? Do you mean injury as necessitating a few months off? Do you mean injury as needing a couple of weeks off? Be specific.

    Greyhounds, just like human athletes are all susceptible to niggling injuries and strains which necessitate a few weeks rest and recuperation. These can just as easily occur running about in the pen or on the gallop at the kennels as on the track. Once the pulled muscle or strain has been cured the greyhound can then race again, just like the human sprinters can.

    Continuing improvements over the past few years have been made to the running surface at all tracks, and at Belle Vue in particular, to make it as safe as possible, by putting in new drainage and rebanking and reprofiling the bends to make them smoother, to take as much stress as is possible out of running the bend.

  50. mrs donna scase

    October 22, 2008 at 12:22 pm

    as posted earlier the flapping tracks do not need to register their dogs there for i wonder what the figures would be if those dogs were brought into the figures in both ireland and england also there are many litters which are bred for coursing only so if you can come up with correct figures amanda wells dont keep harping on about something you know nothing about , my husband and i at the moment are trying to get true figures about this subject and i will not affraid to tell the truth which ever way it goes these will be true and accurate figures .NOT FANTASY ONES .

    amanda wells; you said in an earlier post that i am tarred with the same as every other greyhound owner/trainer because i race dogs so you were saying i was cruel in return you are an anti so i tarred you with the brigade which goes around bulling people and children at entrances to dog tracks
    I’M NOT THREATENED BY YOU OR ANY OF YOUR ORGANISATIONS .

    i race greyhounds which are all retired to my home when finished racing at the age of 4 .

  51. Amanda Wells

    October 22, 2008 at 1:49 pm

    ATHLETE – a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.

    Greyhounds are NOT athletes. And greyhound racing is NOT a ‘sport’ in Scotland – to be a sport in the eyes of the government means a person has to be involved in the activity.

    Just because I know how racing people feel about ‘facts’ I thought I should point out such inaccuracies.

    John – why don’t you publish these ‘success stories’ on a website? I know greyhounds who have had injuries, amputations etc. and live quite happily after racing. Dogs don’t think like we do nor is there any evidence to suggest they have symptoms or pain like ours if losing a limb. Also want to say I have been to the greyhound tracks more times than I can count and I absolutely hate it. Personally I prefer taking mine to the rugby pitch and watch them play freely with each other and behave like dogs rather than run round an oval track.

    Joe. I am going by MY experience. I am well aware there are those who take care of their own. But if there was as many as you say there was, why are thee full to bursting rescues? Suggestion as above – why not set up a website that will be of some use?

    Richard. Once again – greyhound racing ban wouldn’t end straight away. It would be phased in. And if there are as many owners that look after their own dogs as some on here claim, then surely you would look afer your own and make sure they were all safe? I think its about responsibility. Take some. Also if you care to check, the mass slaughter of foxhounds that hunting people forecast actually didn’t happen.

    D. Look at Tia’s Wall of Shame. Thats really the best that can be done now. If you want to assist with trying to get something done next time I end up with a hound in a bad way, I’ll give you a shout so you can experience first hand what we’re up against.

    I also need to point out, are you aware that rescues are frightened of upsetting racing people? Reason behind that is that is all down to the manipulative tactics – i.e. you either take all of them (one recent case was 14 dogs) or you get none of them. What do you do in situ’s like that??? You report them and this guy is going to kill them. You take them and you are talking thousands in vets bills for preventative vet treatment alone. My head isn’t in the sand – most days I wished it was.

    Hey Galty! I don’t see the ‘spin’ – can you explain what you mean? What I see is something being highlighted. But as ever I’m open to hearing opinion but if its littered with ‘scum’, I switch off 😉 I also see people saying that Tony is wrong but I’m not reading any logical explanation on why he’s wrong. All I’m seeing is a lot of comments about ‘lies’ and ‘fantasy’. So if anyone wishes to explain exactly what the injury is I’d be very very grateful – thanks!

    I was told I was getting a phone call today. I’ve sat impatiently beside the phone and no call!

  52. Amanda Wells

    October 22, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    Sorry I meant to add to D – thats impressive about the dog psychology. Agree that its very hard to get people around from that mindset about how dogs think as people tend to think dogs think the same as human. I’m no behaviouralist (far from it), but case in point is the ‘just one litter’ situations. Would be interested to hear more about dealing with SA because as I said, it is something which affects so many greyhounds. Don’t suppose this is the right forum for it though…

    Hi Donna. You don’t have to keep using my surname – its just Amanda. Its hard to read your mailings due to lack of punctuation. I am sorry but I don’t believe we’ve spoken therefore you can’t possibly know what my knowledge or experience is. I don’t believe I’ve mentioned figures (apart from saying I’m reluctant to discuss them) and I don’t believe I’ve said I’m tarring you all with the same brush or used the word ‘cruel’. However if you and your husband wish to research figures, I’d be very interested in what you come up with. And I’m glad to hear you are not threatened by my group. Nor do I believe any of the ‘antis’ are threatened by your attempted phone ‘harrassment’.

  53. richard newell

    October 23, 2008 at 2:06 am

    Amanda, you will phase it in. Right so, once it is phased in where will I take my dogs to race, run, exercise, to do what they enjoy doing most or will I just keep them locked up in a kennel for the rest of their lives?
    Can’t you see that by banning racing you take away the very thing greyhounds love to do the most? They don’t get half as excited by walking or gallops, but the moment I take them through the racetrack entrance and I park up in the racetrack car park they know where they are, they are alert, on edge, and visibly waiting in anticipation and excitement of a RACE!

    Now, you want to deprive greyhounds of the very thing they enjoy doing the most, shame on you, I think you are the cruel one’s and you anti’s simply refuse to acknowledge that Greys LOVE to RACE. Fortunately the vast majority of the public and many people in power, certainly in Ireland having the Toiseach a weekly visitor to both horse and greyhound racing, know and can see for themselves how much greys LOVE to RACE.

  54. Joe Koller

    October 23, 2008 at 2:45 am

    As we’re now being picky, I think Amanda you need to read posts properly before you start quoting from dictionaries.

    I think you’ll find that my post read, “Greyhounds just like human athletes…” Nowhere did I say a greyhound was an athlete, it was a comparison!!

    As we’re now questioning facts then I would ask you to produce proof of this one

    “Our latest research indicates that over 15,000 greyhounds are “put down” annually after being judged
    unsuitable to race on British tracks or when their racing “careers” come to an end, either through
    age or injury.”

    So c. 300 greyhounds per week are being pts in Britain, each and every week. By whom? Bring me proof. You’re busy spouting facts and figures, show me cast iron proof that its happening. You can’t,can you? because you don’t have it.You’re just playing at the numbers game again.

    Its yet another highly inflated, over exagerated claim to try and mislead the general public. Vets won’t simply put healthy dogs to sleep any longer,particularly greyhounds, which is as it should be.

    You then claim that Greyhound rescue charities are bursting at the seams, somewhat of a contradiction there. Err I thought according to you that most greyhounds who were injured or finished racing were put to sleep? So if it is the case there should be no need for Greyhound charities as there wouldn’t be any Greyhounds to re-home, would there?

    Your claims, like your figures simply don’t add up. It is no wonder that people within the industry don’t take you seriously. If you came with some logical claims, based upon REAL figures then maybe you’d find people would be more inclined to listen to you.

    On another note as you mention foxhunting, there is little doubt that when another Conservative Government is elected, they will reverse that law and fox hunting and coursing will again be legalised. There is such a strong influence of the Countryside set within the Tory party that if Cameron gets a big enough majority, he’ll force it through Parliament.

  55. Amanda Wells

    October 23, 2008 at 5:22 am

    Richard. Running I will give you but racing – personally I believe they prefer running at the park. You shoudl see my hounds reactions when I park at the beach…

    Joe – one of us is confused. Where have I stated figures?

    And yes – greyhound rescues are burtsing at the seams – if you’d care enough to see the industry cast-off’s you’d perhaps know this already.

    Regarding vets ptsing healthy dogs. That hasn’t stopped. If a vet is told to pts a dog for no apparent reason, he will do so. Only exception is where you have one with morals who may try rescue instead. Look at all the ‘pound’ dogs who are healthy and pts each week.

    Away back to work now before I’m tempted to ask why I keep being told I’ve said things that I haven’t!

    I am noting that none of my questions are being answered though…

  56. tom

    October 23, 2008 at 6:43 am

    Hi Amanda.

    You can use my name its TOM.

    You ask how Peters is wrong, as you did not stipulate to this topic then will open it up.

    Peters has in the past stated his support for ALF and their crimes.

    Peters has on a msn site(GGLL) and others stated his objections to vivesection was not to Help the Human race but was???????????

    His wife(who is the driving force behind GA) has found out she has Greaves diease.

    Peters went on a rant(sighthoundtrust) that this was down to the Labour Gove not spending on local Doctors so she would have been diagnosed sooner.

    She then went on to have to take drugs tested on animals if she was very bad she had to have radiation treatment tested on animals.

    My brother suffers from this nasty condition and is still alive but has to take.

    My wife who was diagnosed with this condition in the early sixties and keept alive till her late fifties on drugs tested on animals.

    Peters is not only against Greyhound racing but against any thing to do with animals.

    Peters is making a fortune with donations to his”cause” for him self but I bet not on penny has gone to help any animal.

    PS I do hope his wife is learning to live with this diesea and is coping well, let me no please

    Galty(Tom)

  57. John gadd

    October 23, 2008 at 10:48 am

    Amanda

    In response to your reply i would like to make the following points, how do you know that a dogs pain threshold is any different to our own?, where is the vetinary evidence to suggest and support this quote is true?, if a dog (any breed) hurts itself it will scream, if it is cut it will bleed hmm sounds familiar to humans really.

    Also at no point did i say it was not possible for a greyhound to live hapilly after an amputation, my point was that its quality of life would be greatly diminished as A GREYHOUND LOVES TO RUN, i am not saying that they can not still do this after an amputation all i am saying is that it would not have the same capabilities as an “able bodied” dog.

    As for your comment about “hating” greyhound racing the soloution to that is simple, dont go.

    I too love to see my dogs running free in the field and playing as well as seeing them on the track, we are obviously never going to agree on anything that is written but is the direct animosity and nastiness really necessary?, or is this the only way you know how to put yourself across?.

  58. John Gadd

    October 23, 2008 at 11:04 am

    Amanda,

    Firstly these success stories ARE published on a website, the problem being the “antis” cant be bothered or really dont want anything good or nice said about our sport only wanting the darker sides of it to come to public view, if you really wanted to view other stories from caring owners and trainers the information is probably easier to find than the stuff you try so hard to find.

    Secondly, please could you provide the vetinary evindence that states that d dog does not have the same reaction to pain as we do, as far as i was aware any mammal with a central nervous system feels pain in the same degree, the only difference being its abillity to express itself.

    Thirdly, i NEVER said that it was not possible for a greyhound to live with an amputation, my comment (if you read the post) was that its quality of life would be diminished.

    I believe you work for and on behalf of greyhound action in Scotland, please could you explain to me why recently a friend of mine had to rescue a greyhound from a vets school where it was being used for blood and when approached greyhound action for help was told that it was nothing to do with them?.

    Also, i too enjoy watching my dogs play and run round the field, however i also enjoy goin to the track, and if you dont my suggestion would be simply, dont go.

  59. mrs donna scase

    October 23, 2008 at 2:13 pm

    all greyhound kennels registered within the industry are inspected by stewards do you think if a kennel was in poor conditions that includes the greyhounds the trainers would get away with it i say NO , because they are more concerned about their welfare than the antis will ever be .
    try asking any steward in the industry what they have to say they will probably tell you politely go away .

    hope you can understand this amanda as my punctuation marks are not irelevent , its just you trying to be petty , tried ringing you today at no avail is this your number 07795514073

  60. Roger Taylor

    October 23, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    Trudy I rest my case I certainly would not subject a dog with the problems Upton has to such a hostile enviroment, I may take one of my shepherds but not a Greyhound.

    You also mention that you are his foster mum, maybe this is where some of his problems arise he is not human he’s a dog and if treated as a dog may improve his behaviour,I suggest you watch the Dog Whisperer on telly he may give you a few pointers.

    Amanda I don’t think anyone can dispute the fact that there are greyhounds PTS at Belle Vue as the result of injuries,and I wouldn’t argue that some may have been able to have been saved.However there is no way that the numbers that you quote have been PTS at Belle Vue is any where near realistic.
    The thing that gets me about your organisation is that you tar all owners with the same brush no credit at all is given to those who do care for their dogs,Yes there are to many Greyhounds but hello the same could be said for every other breed of dog in the country, at least Greyhounds have a life they enjoy and most have a happy retirement after racing, I see so many overweight unfit dogs on the streets that the owners say they love and adore but then proceed to kill with kindness, If I were a dog I know which I’d rather be.

    You also claim that your protests are peaceful I beg to differ they can be quite intimidateing and what about the attempt to stop a race last year by throwing a cuddly toy onto the track during a race,the only reason a dog was not seriously hurt by the prank was that the idiot who threw it was so incompetant that threw it behind the dogs, doesn’t seem logical help save Greyhounds by trying to kill them.
    Or the thousands of tacks spread out side a trainers in an area dogs were walked through,impressive.
    Now I’m not saying people off this site were responsible but I’ve got a tub of tar in my shed and a spare brush.

  61. Amanda Wells

    October 23, 2008 at 2:53 pm

    Tom (I prefer Galty!)
    I meant what was the injury. I’m still no closer to hearing the ‘other side’!

    I knew a lot of what you said about your experiences but I can’t comment on how other people think or what they believe in. As you are aware, I most certainly do not agree with ALF tactics as I have stated on our website relating to the Armadale attacks which angered me immensely. I don’t see a place for breaking the law.

    However I am also involved in other animal issues too. I also need medication every day that I’m certain has been tested on animals. It may be hypocritical but I’m not prepared to die for my cause so I’ll keep taking it!

    I already answered what I understand GA funds are used for on another forum (before I sent my driving license but still got banned!). We are not a charity because we aren’t allowed to be one – check up on the legislaion and you’ll find why not. It would suit me if we could register as a charity and I’ve discussed with the committee ways in which we could change to be able to register as a charity but to be honest we haven’t come up with anything as yet.

    I can most definitely state that my own experience is that no money is used for personal gain. In fact the exact opposite and I really think you are barking up the wrong tree on that one. I really struggle answering questions like this because I’m always very reluctant to speculate on other peoples beliefs unless I’m 100% sure. I’m ot so I can’t comment or say what it is you want me to – sorry.

    John
    Will look up the research on it (or you can google it yourself) but it was again my own experiences and converstaions with vets in making a decision to amputate. Vets stated the research and evidence suggested that animals don’t feel pain in the same way and as far as amputations go. Humans report feelings of still feeling the missing limb present after amputation – it has a technical name but it escapes me. There is no evidence whatsoever in any research that animals experience this.

    I’ve met a few ‘tripod’ greyhounds who can still run/play just as fast before – animals adapt in the way we humans don’t. I am also aware that in cases of amputation, the animal can be back to a normality within 6 weeks of op. It would be very unusual for a human to be the same.

    Can you point me to the website where these success stories are please?

    As for vet school no one has been in touch with us about any dog from a vet school. If they had, I actually have a spare foster home available at the moment so would have taken the dog without any issue. I have NEVER at any time turned anyone away and said its nothing to do with us. Is this the Bearsden vet school dogs? If so, we’ve been aware of these for a long time and previously made them an offer and we were told where to go. So whoever it was that told you that is talking bollox. By all means since my mobile number has been posted, get them to call me so I can have words with them about this issue because any issue like that I would have been on top of.

    Just to help you understand. GA Scotland is a stand alone group with its own constitution, bank account, website, email account and committee. Our campaign direction is different although we have the same aims and goals as GA and support them fully.

    Donna.

    I find your message hard to read given I’ve done a full days work and haven’t stopped on phone, email and running after kids/dogs since getting home and I’m tired.

    That is my mobile number. My phone is on silent when I’m at work. I have three missed calls today – but I can account for all of them and don’t appear to have a missed call from any unknown number for weeks.

    If you want to phone, I’m happy to talk to you or anyone else. I should finish around 4 tomorrow (Friday), will be walking and feeding hounds but am free to talk after around 6-ish if you want to call then? I will say that my home phone line is red hot at the moment so if I dont’ answer, I can call you back if you leave your number. If you dont’ want to do that, keep trying and I’ll answer eventually.

  62. Amanda Wells

    October 23, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    Roger

    WHAT figures have I posted???? Please will someone show me where I’ve posted these figures?

    What fluffy toy on track??? If that happened at Shawfield it had sod all to do with us! I can’t get into Shawfield any more and haven’t been in for about three years. But for the record, I wouldn’t be so stupid as to do that! I can’t imagine anyone who would. We’ve chucked members out for a lot less but I would personally string one up if they did that!

    Tacks where trainers walk dogs??? You really are accusing us (as in GA Scotland) of doing that??? When? Where?

    Bloody hell!!! The only incident relating to attacks against greyhounds I am aware of was the guy who’s greyhound pup’s head was cut off in a drugs revenge thing in Aberdeen afew years back

    And before anyone asks, that had feck all to do with me either!

  63. Joe Koller

    October 24, 2008 at 12:04 am

    I’m talking about the figures put forward in the initial article that 15,000 greyhounds are put to sleep annually in the UK Amanda. I’ve even quoted it from the original article for you. You’re involved in GA aren’t you, so you must agree with this figure?

    As I’ve pointed out this equates to 300 greyhounds per week being pts. I’ve asked you quite simply to provide me with proof that this happens. I think that like the figures provided for pups born annually, it is just a wild guesstimate, based artificially high for effect and to try and whip up public opinion.

    You – or no-one else from the anti brigade- has bothered to answer my questions about why your activists at Belle Vue cannot simply demonstrate peacefully and have to hassle and verbally abuse people including children with their parents, wanting to enter the track.

  64. Joe Koller

    October 24, 2008 at 12:12 am

    As for the fluffy toy – it happened at Belle Vue – and fortunately no greyhound was killed or seriously injured as Roger says, though that was more by luck than good judgement.

    I don’t know how GA can condone such behaviour. I mean you claim to want to save dogs yet someone who is anti greyhound racing did this in the knowledge that it could have caused serious injury or death to one or more dogs.

  65. Roger Taylor

    October 24, 2008 at 12:56 am

    Just pointing out how easy it is to tar people both those incidents relate to Belle Vue but as it seems the norm for those who are against Greyhound racing to lump all owners together as evil murderers then surly any action taken against the sport by anti racing people can to be levelled against you all,them bad apples seem to get everywhere.

  66. Galty

    October 25, 2008 at 8:01 am

    Amanda

    Have looked at your web site and admit that you have not solicited funds.

    That cannot be said of GA main site run by Peters and Trudys site that has PAL PAY DONATE on ever page(How many other causes as well)

    Your reply that mentions Armadale(Scottish flapping track) that was attacked by the Anties as reported by the Scottish press had an interesting by line at the end(Will try to find link was 2004)

    Insuch that they stated that a person was arrested in Reading for trying to blow up an Animal researcher(And ALLEADGE to be an associate of the PETERS org and as such the attack on Armadale).

    He was later sentenced to 12 years as terrorist and as Cat A.

  67. Trudy Baker

    October 26, 2008 at 7:44 am

    John
    I believe we have a duty of care to our animals and I personally would not subject any dog in my care to a higher risk of injury than absolutely necessary. I believe racing a greyhound on an oval track at 30 plus MPH, together with 5 other greyhounds is not protecting that animal from pain, injury or suffering and I would argue that anyone subjecting their dog to this form of exploitation is not only immoral but is also contravening animal welfare law.

    9 Duty of person responsible for animal to ensure welfare
    (1) A person commits an offence if he does not take such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances to ensure that the needs of an animal for which he is responsible are met to the extent required by good practice.
    (2) For the purposes of this Act, an animal’s needs shall be taken to include—
    (a) its need for a suitable environment,
    (b) its need for a suitable diet,
    (c) its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns,
    (d) any need it has to be housed with, or apart from, other animals, and
    (e) its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/pdf/ukpga_20060045_en.pdf
    Joe
    I would argue that my figures are as accurate as they could possibly be, bearing in mind the Irish do not even consider a puppy’s life important enough to be counted individually. My calculations are based on the numbers of litters bred, supplied by the Irish Greyhound Board and the ‘pups per litter’ as stated by the British Greyhound Racing Board. How can you dispute numbers given by your own industry?
    I cannot comment on the leafleting campaigns in general at Belle Vue, I attended only the once as I was in Manchester on that day.
    However, knowing the supporters who campaign there, I do believe they are peaceful and respectful. If you have evidence of them being anything else than that, I suggest you report it to the police.

    Richard
    The funding for the British industry is always a year in arrears.
    If greyhound racing were to be abolished today for example, the levy payable by the bookmakers, based on profits made this year, would still be available in 2009.
    Therefore next year, the whole levy would be allocated to welfare, as there would be no reason to fund ‘research’, provide grants for stadiums or pay the GBGB to run the industry.
    As the RGT are now declaring they re-home nearly half the greyhounds registered to race on NGRC tracks – 4,479 – on a budget of £1.7 m, then clearly, £10m plus would be ample to ensure the welfare of the dogs made redundant now – 10,000 – and those already in the system

    Di
    I AM concentrating my efforts on over breeding. A complaint has been made to the EU commissioners regarding the funding of what is clearly an over bred animal, which is neither afforded the protection as livestock or a companion animal under EU law.

    Joe
    Are you suggesting that Belle Vue is one of the safest tracks in the country?

    Donna
    Your claim that all racing kennels are inspected and that all trainers are concerned with welfare is absolute poppycock. I have seen racing and retired greyhounds kept in filthy, damp, dark and cold conditions. Having to sleep on urine soaked newspaper because the greyhounds are only let out for 10 minutes a day to stretch their legs in muddy and filthy patch of land no bigger than 20 foot square.

    Roger
    I did not subject Upton a hostile environment. As I have already told you, the leafleting campaign that night was peaceful and respectful.
    You will forgive me if I don’t take your advice on how to care for my dogs. Particularly as the advice is coming from someone who supports an industry whereby their dogs are considered livestock and more often than treated as a commodity.
    Out of interest Roger, how many greyhounds do you think have been euthansed at Belle Vue in the last 12 months?

    Galty
    It has cost Greyt Exploitations money to set up. We have daily expenses such phone calls, computer software, postage and stationary. Sometimes we have to pay for professional advice and services.
    Our research demands most of expenditure and Ireland actually charge for requests under the Freedom of Information act.
    We, as far as the campaign side, are self funding as we are passionate about greyhounds and their welfare.
    I can honestly say, when we receive a donation it goes straight to ‘rescue’ and the last few donated pounds were invested on a poem we commissioned especially for Upton, to try and improve his chances for re-homing.
    Not surprising that none of you ‘dog lovers’ have offered him a forever home as yet.
    But as you have bought the subject up of ‘donations’ perhaps I can remind you, the owners of this industry – the bookmakers – made £180,000 on average gross profit on each of the greyhounds raced on NGRC tracks last year. In return those bookmakers awarded a grant to the RGT, to ensure the greyhounds welfare in retirement that would amount to a pathetic £170 each – total and utter exploitation!
    Less than half of The Retired Greyhound Trust’s funding is provided by the bookmakers, the majority of funding is by ‘public’ donation.

    In conclusion, the information on Greyt Exploitations website has been carefully researched and from credible sources. I suggest all supporters of the racing industry read and digest its contents,learn the truth, rather then burying your heads in the sand and justifying your support of this exploitative industry in the comfort that you and you alone, treat your dogs well.

  68. Amanda Wells

    October 26, 2008 at 5:25 pm

    Dunno about not ‘soliciting’ funds Tom. We do accept donations but our running costs are pretty minimal so we can fundraise via car boots and whatever for what we need and the rest of the money goes to rescues in the UK and Ireland. Almost all our donations go directly to vets bills for hounds or to rescues. One recent example, we had someone hand one of our supporters a tenner at Shawfield a few weeks ago but that was the week before a car boot sale for Gap – that paid for the table at the car boot sale. Again all our money is accounted for and we have books to prove it.

    Roger/Joe. Say whatever ‘floats your boats’ because I cannot answer what you are asking. I doubt you’ll accept that but thats your issue, not mine. Sorry!

    But please do watch the following links from a film made 15 years ago. PRIOR to GA being established. Thats ‘your own’ speaking out…

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_XbP-yI3NEg

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQQ094lVD8

  69. Joe Koller

    October 27, 2008 at 11:42 am

    Well how convenient, let’s avoid/ignore the questions which if you could answer them, would give some credibility to your case. Nothing to do with floating anyone’s boat, its about dealing in true,facts Amanda,which can be substantiated something which you and your colleagues seem to be short on.

    You make these WILD claims, yet cannot back them up with FACTS, other than the wildly exaggerated, unsubstantiated figures you put forward as facts.

    As I said in a previous post,provide me with proof then I’ll listen to you. Until then I’ll take your claims with a substantial amount of salt.

  70. Amanda Wells

    October 27, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    Joe

    Okay. I’ll make this simple as I can. Your post says:

    “As for the fluffy toy – it happened at Belle Vue – and fortunately no greyhound was killed or seriously injured as Roger says, though that was more by luck than good judgement.”

    First I’ve never been to Belle Vue. Its around a 5 hour drive from here. I have no idea what you are talking about. I wasn’t there, I have no idea who was and this is the first time I’ve heard of this incident you mention. I’ve commented on what i thought on anyone doing something like that. What more do you want me to say? I’ve said this more than once so please – tell me what your point is!

    “I don’t know how GA can condone such behaviour. I mean you claim to want to save dogs yet someone who is anti greyhound racing did this in the knowledge that it could have caused serious injury or death to one or more dogs.”

    I don’t see anywhere that says GA condone such behaviour. I don’t see any reference to this incident happening in the first place. But you want me to comment on something which I only have your word for it happened in the first place?

    ” its about dealing in true,facts Amanda,which can be substantiated something which you and your colleagues seem to be short on.”

    This comes from someone who denies the UK racing industry isn’t riddled with serious welfare issues for the dogs???

    “You make these WILD claims, yet cannot back them up with FACTS, other than the wildly exaggerated, unsubstantiated figures you put forward as facts.”

    And please do tell me which wild claims i or the Scottish campaign have made? Did I or did I not state about how I am uncomfortable discussing figures very early on here? Different ballgame up here as to what it is South and given I deal with Scotland, its not an area I feel I CAN comment on. Trudy has and given the amount of research and work she puts in, I think she’s the person to answer your questions – although to me you aren’t going to accept any answer!

    Just a reminder – facts work both ways…

    “As I said in a previous post,provide me with proof then I’ll listen to you. Until then I’ll take your claims with a substantial amount of salt.”

    Proof of what? What claims have I made? I am amused by this – its like being told to answer a question you haven’t been asked! I haven’t made any claims and galty is the only one who appears to have looked at our website! Some of you rant about ‘education’ yet you don’t practice what you preach! Am prepared to discuss any aspect of OUR Scottish campaign that you want. I can’t comment on other campaigns although I support them fully. At the end of the day, too many dogs not enough homes. End of.

  71. D Hilsley

    October 28, 2008 at 3:08 am

    Amanda (& Trudy ) ~ Too many dogs not enough homes ~ you are correct and the vast overbreeding is something that needs rectifying pronto.
    I think to move forward everyone needs to work together for the greyhounds sake, so you people need to weed out your nasty aggressors who WILL NOT listen to anyone and can and have become violent and therefore do more harm than good and we need to continue weeding out the scum that do harm to greyhounds.

    We also need you to be on our side for our fight against the sale of fireworks to the general public … please .

  72. Amanda Wells

    October 28, 2008 at 5:41 am

    No issue with fighting against the sale of fireworks at all, Di. I absolutely hate the effect they have on the dogs.

    I can only speak for Scotland since I organise and attend all demo’s at the moment. We don’t focus our campaign on demo’s – with only 1 NGRC track and 5 flapping tracks in Scotland, it has to take a different tactic which is why we’re more shaped towards a political level. However I can promise you that any individual who acts inappropriately while on anything I have organised is told very clearly to leave and not return.

    As for the overbreeding. I don’t see how the industry could continue in its present form if overbreeding is ‘rectified’?

  73. Brandy M

    October 28, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    ALL THOSE BUISNESS OWNERS SHOULD BE PUT DOWN THEY DONT CARE ABOUT THE ANIMAL’S WELFARE ONLY ABOUT MONEY
    GREEDY SELFISH PEOPLE

  74. Trudy Baker

    October 29, 2008 at 4:57 am

    Hi Di

    If you would like to email me
    info@greytexploitations.com, perhaps we can discuss our concerns and possible solutions in private.

    In the meantime there a number of ongoing campaigns calling for more stringent laws on fireworks.

    I personally would support one of these, as they calls for the abolition of the public sale of fireworks.

    http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/FireWork-Shows/

    http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/banthebang/#detail

    But honestly feel an EDM will be the only way to seriously address the problem…..so we need to lobby our MPs

    Take care
    Trudy

  75. Joe Koller

    October 29, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    Oh I see now Amanda that you’re disassociating yourself with the actions of Mr Peters et al, “but I only speak for Scotland”.

    So I take it you therefore disagree with the figures being put forward that 15,000 greyhounds are being put down annually in the UK.

    So, lets get down to brass tacks. As you only claim to be only concerned with Scotland, how many greyhounds do you claim are put down annually in Scotland? and can you provide me with proof that this figure is correct?

  76. Joe Koller

    October 29, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    Oh and as I see you support fully all other campaigns in the UK, I take it you condone the bullying and harrasment of the general public which takes place outside many greyhound stadia, by GA activists?

  77. D Hilsley

    October 30, 2008 at 6:53 am

    Brandy M
    I am a business owner who races greyhounds and I can assure you 100% that the health and happiness of my greyhounds comes 1st. I also very rarely bet on my dogs and when they retire they come home to me.
    You can put me down if you wish but I don’t think my dogs at home would be very happy with you as their love for me is nearly as great as mine is for them and also I think my racers would miss seeing me every week, but at least I would go knowing that my trainer would look after them for the remainder of their lives .
    Rash aggressive comments like yours just reminds me that a lot of people really don’t know what they are talking about.

  78. Trudy Baker

    October 31, 2008 at 2:45 am

    Di
    Your first sentence is a contradiction of terms. By the very fact you race greyhounds and expose them to unnecessary risk of injury, sometimes fatal, is not putting the health and happiness of your hounds first. You are placing your needs first and foremost.

    By doing so, you are also supporting this bookmaker owned industry, whose sole purpose is to ensure maximum profits.

    The bookmakers effectively employ the BGRB, the RGT and the NGRC to perpetuate ‘welfare’ propaganda and give the industry public acceptance and social credibility.

    It is a fact, that 99% of the industry’s funding is generated through off course betting and BAGS meetings, which are not held as social events but purely to be streamed online or televised in betting shops.

    Please accept that greyhound racing, in its present day form, is a commercial industry, simply to supply a betting medium for gamblers.

    Long gone are the days with one man and his dog racing in a social environment. The industry is sustained by ‘super trainers’ who have kennels of 100 or more greyhounds to run at BAGS meetings. Costing less than £100 and in today’s climate sometimes given away, the BAGS greyhound is afforded very little, is any, in terms of human companionship or welfare and if not bringing home the rent – either injured or too slow – is as disposable as its price tag.

    Spare a thought for the thousands of greyhounds that are exploited by an industry that you support………… call yourself a dog lover?

    BTW, Brandy’s comments were an expression of how she/he feels, so she/he must clearly know what they are talking about.

    Joe
    Please refer to this page as regards GA’s stats
    http://www.greyhoundaction.org.uk:80/facts2.html
    This fact sheet has been recently updated so you will need to either contact me info@greytexploitations.com or GA directly to obtain the update in pdf format.

    I for one resent your accusations of campaigners using bullying tactics.
    Are you suggesting that no more than a handful of supporters are in a position to harass the hundreds of uneducated ‘punters’ who flood into the stadiums?

    I understand, in some cases, it is the supporters of the campaign who are harassed by the stadiums officials and various groups have had to request a police presence during leafleting sessions for THEIR safety!

    Can I remind you………peacefully and respectfully leafleting outside stadiums is a lawful activity. If you have any evidence of it being anything other than that, then please make a complaint to the police.

    No takers for Upton yet?
    Come on, surely one of you DOG LOVERS would want to give an ex racer a loving home……………

  79. Trudy Baker

    October 31, 2008 at 5:35 am

    I owe Di an apology. Very sorry indeed. She had emailed me yesterday and somehow the email didn’t come through until this morning.
    I quite wrongly assumed she had refused my offer to discuss things in private, hence my posting earlier this morning.
    Once again very sorry to appear so rude Di.

  80. D Hilsley

    October 31, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    Trudy
    Apology accepted and we will catch up and discuss things further very soon .
    Di

  81. Joe Koller

    November 1, 2008 at 3:55 am

    You can resent it all you like Trudy – it happens and I’m not alone in having witnessed it. Whilst it is most certainly legal to peacefully leaflet, it is not acceptable for activists to abuse people simply because they don’t want a leaflet, or harass people who WANT to come into the track. It happens Trudy and its not acceptable.

    However, I will most certainly take your advice and next time your activists prevent me from getting into the track by blocking a public right of way, I shall indeed refer it to higher authorities.

    On another subject, as Amanda has decided to ignore, sidestep, whatever you wnat to call it, my original question perhaps you would be so kind as to provide me with proof as to your organisation’s claim that 15,000 greyhounds are pts every year in the UK. GA make the claim, which is imo totally pie in the sky, so provide me with cast iron evidence that will prove it, or stop using the fact in your literature.

  82. Joe Koller

    November 1, 2008 at 4:02 am

    Oh by the way having purused your FACT sheet it is based TOTALLY on guesstimates, which to try and add weight to your campaign are as high as you can make them.

    So its not a FACT SHEET is it, because what you are using aren’t FACTS are they?

  83. mrs donna scase

    November 1, 2008 at 3:57 pm

    trudy baker, you say your organisation doesnt use bully tactics i have seen this happen with my own eyes at a track where 1 anti was going to open the door of our vehicle but before he could my husband opened it and with me holding on to my husbands clothing stopped him from getting out this happened on private property attached to the stadium if i had known this at the time i would have let my husband go then i can assure you it would have took all the others who with him to pull him off this was in front of our 3 children this goes back like your exagerated figures 3 years ago .

    you say 15000 greyhounds are pts every year in the uk where are your facts and not fiction .

    arent you a greyhound lover why dont you take in upton then .

  84. Amanda Wells

    November 1, 2008 at 6:11 pm

    Joe

    I am not disassociating myself from anything or anyone. I am trying to explain to you why I cannot answer (lack of knowledge/understanding given that I deal with a whole different kettle of fish). I have stated quite clearly that I cannot speak for other alleged incidents you refer to. I have asked you what it is you want me to say – you can’t answer that, you just reword the question and keep asking. I will try to make this easy for you – I CANNOT ANSWER THE QUESTIONS YOU ARE ASKING. That clear enough?

    As for figures in Scotland (and I can answer anythign you wish to question me on in scotland however i suspect strongly that you can’t ask me anyting like that because of your ignorance). Four years ago we wrote out to every rescue in Scotland to ask how many greyhounds they had taken over the previous year. Massive exercise to track everyone down and make sure we had every rescue. THere were at that point around 60 rescues in Scotland Most of the small rescues answered and we had something like a 75% response rate which is very good when you compare with other response rates.

    However for whatever reason the SSPCA declined our request outright and their branches were all instructed not to answer this question and we had a response back from HQ stating that they couldn’t provide this info. What this was all about, I have no idea. We did this for a specific reason and were aware that at that point there was a lot of political backing for something to be done about greyhound racing in Scotland and there was talks about a private members bill to ban it which never got off the ground for lots of reasons.

    Someone involved in racing (and I use the term “person” loosely because this guy has done a lot of damage) then provided his own stats on the numbers of greyhounds in Scotland. These figures were, to be frank, completely disputable. He reckoned 749 (to be exact) dogs entered racing each year in Scotland and listed what happened to each of them. Flapping tracks were not included – just Shawfield only. The majority he claimed were sold on to flapping tracks which seemed an ‘acceptable’ thing to do with hounds once they’d finished racing. He accounted for every single one of those hounds. Now I know you are defensive of racing, but to believe that not one of those dogs had ‘disappeared’ in scotland was totally untrue. Especially since I had several of these dos he had accounted of through here so either I imagined it, their race card was wrong or he made it up! Several rescues gave me tattoo marks for their dogs and a couple of the strays were ‘accounted for’ within these stats as being somewhere else. The full story of this is about to be uploaded onto our website. I *might* agree that 749 hounds came to Scotland for racing at Shawfield. But the majority of the dogs in Scotland are here for flapping and there is no way of getting those figures for obvious reasons.

    So the short answer is we have no idea of exactly how many hounds are in Scotland. We have estimates for around 75% of rescues which are now very out of date. However it would be impossible to project these figures because one of the largest rescues in Scotland will not cooperate with this. Therefore we prefer not to because I cannot be accurate with these stats which is why this info has never been released. I do have to say I was shocked with the figures we got – much higher than I anticipated. However things, as I’ve said several times, are very different in Scotland and since our campaign is geared more as a lobbying group, its irrelevant to me how many dogs are out there because no one is ever going to reveal the truth.

    And Joe – I don’t condone harrassment of anyone by anyone. But then one thing you forget is that you harp on that I need proof of things I haven’t even said but I’m expected to believe that its even true in the first place – where is your proof of this ‘harrassment’? Because I have proof of racing people breaking the law (Telecommunications Act – check it out)to harrass campaigners via telephone. Someone (one of your own people!) sent me great detail about what has been said and about this encouragement to phone. In my case it wouldn’t be harrassment because i have invited Donna to call me – she never has. THAT speaks volumes.

    Donna – you are way, way out of order. Your comments are sickening. Trudy may have Upton as a foster but without people available to foster dogs like Upton there would be many more hounds dying. Trudy HAS taken him in and is nursing him back to health as well as dealing with his behavioural issues. Who the hell are you to say she isn’t doing enough? What a lowlife thing to say. How dare you? Any idea I had that you had an inch of compassion for these hounds has now gone. Lets hope people reading this do not take you as representative of racing people because fortunately I know nt all are like you. And you have the audacity to question Trudy as a greyhound lover? When was the last (actually the first) time you took on someone elses wastage and spent time and money nursing it until it became a ‘pet’?

  85. Joe Koller

    November 2, 2008 at 4:47 am

    I agree Donna.

    If you look at the GA website it proudly announces about demonstrators heckling racegoers at Coventry, yet according to Trudy and Amanda this sort of harrassment doesn’t happen.

    They can’t even get their facts right about this. You can’t expect them to have their facts correct about the number of greyhounds pts can you?

  86. Mr.B.Scase

    November 2, 2008 at 7:28 am

    amanda, how is donna breaking any codes of practice with the telecom act when all your telephone numbers are on your sites i think you should get your facts right before trying to tell others

  87. Amanda Wells

    November 2, 2008 at 10:32 am

    Apologies. I’ve just contacted my local friendly policeman. There are actually two seperate pieces of legislation which refer to the offences your wife has commited and one which would be taken seriously should anyoen wish to report this. There is a third however taht woudl be a test case against her.

    1. Protection from Harassment Act 1997
    Section 2 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 makes it an offence to pursue a course of conduct which causes another person harassment, alarm or distress.

    2. Telecommunications Act 1984
    (1) A person who -[…] (b) sends by those means, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, a message that he knows to be false or persistently makes use for that purpose of a public telecommunication system,

    Give the copies of things I’ve been sent, Donna is on very shaky ground here. Irrespective of whether or not the phone numbers are published, she is inciting other people to harrass and intimidate. Pathetic.

    Interesting no one has cared to mention the latest Sunday Times article. Can’t WAIT to hear the justification for that one from the likes of you…

  88. Joe Koller

    November 2, 2008 at 2:43 pm

    Right so you can’t provide me with figures for Scotland Amanda,ok I accept that.

    Therefore the 15,000 greyhounds Greyhound Action are pts in the UK each year is just as I’ve maintained all along, a fanciful exaggeration. If you can’t give figures for Scotland then the 15,000 for the whole of the UK can’t be right, can it?

    As for evidence of harrasing punters, have a look on the GA website which actually trumpets examples of your activists heckling punters at Coventry for one. Doubtless there are other examples if I could be bothered to search hard enough.

    I do however have a lot of time for people who work tirelessly for various rescues. I try to support two very good friends of mine from time to time and recognise the important role played by these rescues most of whom have to raise the funds themselves to enable them to keep the dogs in kennels, provide veterinary care. etc etc. Fostering is a very important role in this process and I take my hat off to those people who undertake this role.

  89. mrs donna scase

    November 2, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    if you want to persue this in court i will await to hear from the courts authority or a solicitor if this is the way you want to go im sure your organisation will fund this it will be interesting to see how the press will relate to this at least then we can have our views written .

  90. Amanda Wells

    November 2, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    Joe. Trust me, I would love to answer your question just to shut you up! But if I did answer it, it would be pure speculation on my behalf and for many reasons I am very reluctant to do this. I think we’re in a different position in Scotland than the rest of the UK because of the one NGRC track and 5 flapping. It would be like trying to figure out how many staffies, for example, are in Scotland. They’re too hard to trace. I don’t know how many flapping tracks there are in the UK any more but I know we have almost, if not, half of the total UK flapping tracks here. The GA figures, I assume, will be based upon dogs registered for racing. Based upon the licensed tracks where there is some kind of traceability of dogs. For many years I was of the opinion that the industry could and should publish figures because then it would take out this debate completely. However now I don’t think the numbers of dogs matter at all – what matters is that healthy greyhounds are being destroyed. It doesn’t matter if thats a couple of hundred of a couple of thousand, its wrong.

    As for demo’s, Joe. Huge difference between heckling punters than throwing toys on track to distract the dogs etc. Not that I agree heckling is the way to conduct yourself on a demo though – I’d much rather have some banter and trying to tell my side of the story than getting abusive. I only speak for my actions and that of my grou. Given I’m being asked to justify actions and events from another country, I hope you can see why I can’t comment. Just as I don’t expect you to comment on whats going on in Australia, for example.

    Donna. It would be the police as its a criminal offence. I’ve also been told there could be something around ‘inciting hatred’ in there too from what you’ve been writing.

  91. Trudy Baker

    November 2, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    Heres some figures for you Joe………..

    18,864 Greyhound Retirement forms recorded last year by NGRC

    4,479 greyhounds rehomed by the RGT last year.

    ???? slaughtered by Matt Waller!

  92. Amanda Wells

    November 2, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    A few years ago, there were questions around the RGT figures being arguable because they apparently included ‘bounced’ dogs so the same hound could be counted more than once if it had been rehomed more than once in the year. Apparently quite a few rescues do this as each occasion counts as one rehoming instead of one dog in multiple homings – one of my own RGT hounds was homed twice within weeks of coming here.

    And this figure of ‘retirement’ wouldn’t be including the injured pts hounds, the pups who don’t make it that far or anydog going to flapping tracks?

    THIS is why I avoid figures because they leave me with far more questions than they answer!

  93. Amanda Wells

    November 2, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Also meant to ask….

    Wasn’t there an issue with some trainers/owners not completing this form and no or little repercussion for not doing so? I seem to recall something like this from a year or so back. Which would mean this would increase the figures if they only count the Greyhound Retirement Forms and not the missing ones?

  94. mrs donna scase

    November 2, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    amanda , the antis dont incite hatred then to owners and trainers and the whole greyhound industry like i have said if you your organisation or the police would like to take this further bring it on .

    i have not incited hatred nor have i abused anyone on here so you better read my posts a little better

  95. Amanda Wells

    November 2, 2008 at 5:48 pm

    No you haven’t here Donna but you have elsewhere. I think you should read your own posts more carefully – one example is when you encouraged others to telephone “anti s c u m” and directed people to another website where you were party to attempting to get photos phone numbers and addresses of people involved in the campaign. If I ever see my address of photo of me or my family on any website with your or your husbands name attached, please be assured I will press charges against you. Its playground bully stuff.

    And common criminals tend not to get their say in the press however my point about how an industry with people like you involved can never self-regulate will go down well!

    Oh – and I am rather disappointed you never ever did phone me!

  96. Galty

    November 3, 2008 at 9:45 am

    Hi Amanda.

    Intressting you brought up Peters thread on the Yahoo site Greysuk.

    From memory as I recall a poster brought up the fact that one RGT homing centre did not do a home check and a dog they placed was unsuitable and returned… Fair enough.

    Peters then went on this site and stated that greyhounds homed by the RGT had had at least 5 homes found for and returned before they found a forever home, so going by this of the 2000+(2004)home by the RGT the actual figure of dogs found homes was 400.

    Think you are well advised not to take any of the figures Peters comes out with or for that matter Trudys rantings.

  97. Joe Koller

    November 3, 2008 at 10:42 am

    But those figures for dogs re-homed don’t take into account dogs re-homed by many greyhound charities other than the RGT do they Trudy? Nor do they take into account dogs rehomed by their owners.

    Amanda, is this usual ‘anti’ policy when you’re not winning an argument, or where you can’t accept that not everyone sees the world through rose coloured glasses? i.e. threatening people with legal action?

    Very poor imo. If you want to debate things in a sensible manner then do so.If not fine, we’ll call it a day, now. Or is it the fact that we’re responsible greyhound owners, something which goes against the stereotype you try to portray to the general public?

    Oh and by the way, just because I hold an opposite view to you doesn’t make me ignorant as you have claimed, does it?

  98. Joe Koller

    November 3, 2008 at 10:46 am

    Oh Trudy by the way as you seem to have retirement figures, how many were actually homed by their owners or other greyhound charities? (don’t forget there are 100s of small charities – I think Amanda quoted over 60 in Scotland alone- whose figures do not necessarily get included in RGT figures)

    How many were sent for breeding?

    How many were actually pts?

  99. mrs donna scase

    November 3, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    amanda, i have nothing to do with any other site other than greyhoundscene i admit i have looked on another site but it was not my style in the way those people were going about the antis, i would rather debate to yourselves and others than bring violence into the equasion everyone have a difference of opinion but lets debate it like adults .

    joe, thank you for what you have written i agree with what you are saying the figures just dont add up .

    trudy, amanda
    my husband has spent all day on the phone talking to the ngrc,bgrb,the sunday times and tommorrow he will be contacting defra about certain aspects of this story .

  100. Trudy Baker

    November 3, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    This is my very point Joe……..

    The NGRC processed 18,864 retirement forms last year. The form, as can be seen here
    http://www.ngrc.org.uk/downloads/NGRC_Ret_cert.pdf

    So the NGRC should know the fate and fortune of these greyhounds, as the form clearly lists

    A/ Has the greyhound been retained by the NGRC registered owner or trainer?

    B/ Has the greyhound been placed in the care of the RGT or other animal charity?

    C/ Has the greyhound been given or sold to a new owner, given to a breeder that is now its owner or kept by a member of the syndicate to which it is registered?

    D/ Has the greyhound died or been euthanased? – Reasons for euthanasia to include………………..

    1.On humane grounds due to untreatable injury or to cease suffering

    2. Unsuitable as a pet

    3.Terminal illness

    4. Injury not treated on economic grounds

    5. No home or retirement placement could be found

    There is even a section for those trainers who use the services of Holts slaughterhouse!

    So you see Joe, the NGRC have all the numbers you ask me for.
    I have asked the NGRC for those numbers and guess what? Despite being able to determine year upon year, exactly how many greyhounds the industry’s Retired Greyhound Trust allegedly re-home, their data capture fails to record any other such totals which fall into any other category…………stinks somewhat doesn’t it !!

  101. Amanda Wells

    November 3, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    Galty – it wasn’t Tony’s post and it was way after you’d been “ejected”. It was me who looked into that issue and found it was common practice amongst rescue to count the same hound more than once in their figures. Can’t fault the RGT for ‘bouncing’ dogs – even with a homecheck and apparent ideal home, a hound bounced on me due to his behavioural issues. As for five times – I’d be very surprised about for the majority of hounds.

    Joe – I’m not threatening anyone with ‘legal action’. Just pointing out that Donna’s antics have been stupid (and thats being kind!). If someone was advertising for your photo, address or whatever on the internet for an unknown reason, would that concern you? Actually given whats gone in the past, it worries me less these days but it does annoy me because when you start intimidating people at home, where does it stop? I have to say it would annoy me if people involved in racing had same treatment from ‘antis’ and it is something (like the attacks on Armadale) that I would strongly condemn.

    As for your ignorance – read back. Happy to debate with you any time. Again you are saying that “is it the fact that we’re responsible greyhound owners” – I haven’t said that you are not. I’m well aware there ARE responsible owners. However that leads to a whole new debate…

    I believe you aren’t aware of what the scottish campaign does or what it stands for. Because if you did, you’d ask me questions relating to that instead of demanding I answer questions I am telling you I can’t answer! Nothing to do with you holding an opposing view at all – I accept that and I’ll never persuade you otherwise. I’m happy with that and wouldn’t be here if I wasn’t. So feel free to return to debate.

    Good for you, Donna. I’m happy to debate but I’m not happy about a ‘harrassment campaign’ where families and homes are brought into things – was there once before over this campaign and I’m not going back there. Happy to discuss any issue and I truly do mean that if you want to chat, give me a call or send me an email.

  102. Mr.B.Scase

    November 4, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    amanda, could you please enlighten me where my wife has asked for photos or anything else on any forum if you can please tell me because i cannot believe my wife would do this .

  103. Mr.B.Scase

    November 4, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    trudy, do you think all retirement forms are sent to every greyhound owner who race greyhounds the bulk of this litrature i think you will find goes to the tracks to be given out to those who ask for them , another thing how many owners like myself retire greyhounds to their own home or homes which they find and are properly vetted perhaps you would like to revive your figures or carry on multiplying x 100 to get fictional figures .

  104. Amanda Wells

    November 4, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Brian – re-read what I’ve written because I actually didn’t say that (common theme going down here!). Donna HAS actively encouraged others on more than one occasion to be party to a site which does exactly this. Would you like me to post what she’s written for you?

    Can I ask – are you saying that if you ‘retire’ greyhounds to your own home, would you not complete a retirement form or am I reading that wrong?

    If, like Trudy says, the NGRC holds this info then in your position I would be contacting them and demanding that info is made public. Wouldn’t make much difference to me how many hounds that are recorded as homed by the NGRC because no one checks up on these hounds anyway so people could say they were anywhere. Bit farcical really.

    Turning it on its head and if I was a racing person, the first thing I would want is for the industry to be as transparent as possible – and I would be advocating regulation by independant (preferably government or LA) regulator.

    The issue is that too much is ‘hidden’ and going on behind the scenes. If it wasn’t then there would be no examples of the likes of the latest Times article to be able to expose.

    Oh and pre-empting a response. I can tell you (fact!) that the Times will not publish anything unless they are 100% certain its going on and that its factual and true. I suspect we may find another Seaham in this case where not all the info is released at once. There is undoubtedly more to come.

    Just think if racing people would concentrate on whats going on within and doing something about it instead of hitting out as us ‘antis’, something could be done about this…

    I’m meaning everytime something like this comes out, very few within racing admit to knowing whats going on and prefer to issue outright denial instead. I would put money on it that at least one person on here is in a position to ‘name’ names and demand action against them. I try to understand that stance but if I was in that position I’d be publicly slating them…

    Off on a rant as I’m frustrated that there is never any justice for people who do this.

  105. Mr.B.Scase

    November 4, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    amanda, 1st of all i would like to know where donna said that ? also yes all my dogs with the exception of 1 which we have not decided to retire yet has been notified to the ngrc , again you say there could be more to come out about the daniel foggo ie; sunday times report and yes i can assure you if i have my way i shall make sure it does but typically this reporter will not answer any of my calls all i get is an answer phone where i have left my name and number asking if he could call me about this issue but like many reporters they hide behind a typewriter instead of letting me ask some serious questions .

    i am speaking to defra because although i am not an anti i still think this is an issue which has to be resolved not only for myself but many many people in the greyhound world .

  106. Trudy Baker

    November 4, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    Mr Scase
    I am not a trainer nor do I own a racing greyhound but even I know it is a requirement under the rules of racing to fill in a Retirement Form for every greyhound that retires and of course for every greyhound that is euthanased.

    No Brian I don’t think the retirement forms are sent to every greyhound owner – that’s why the forms can be downloaded and printed from the link I gave in my last post………..TO MAKE THINGS SIMPLE FOR YOU.
    However, perhpas they should be sent to all owners and trainers – why arent they????

    If you were to complete the said Retirement Form, together with all the other owners and trainers, as is required by the rules of racing – then we would know how many ‘like yourself retire greyhounds to your own homes’ wouldn’t we?
    And for that matter how many were euthanased or slaughtered!

    Why should I revise my figures??????

  107. Trudy Baker

    November 4, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    BTW

    GOOD LUCK AMERICA ON THE ‘VOTE YES TO 3’

  108. richard newell

    November 5, 2008 at 8:01 am

    Hi, my name is Bella, I am a 9 and a half year old greyhound.
    I started life like so many of my kind, reared in full freedom, fed the best and catered for by my caring rearer.

    At 12 months I was introduced to a schooling track, wow, that was some excitement, I couldn’t wait to go back.

    At 16 months I was taken to a race track and raced for the first time against 5 other greys, the thrill of it all is beyond words..

    I was sold from Ireland to my new owner Richard Newell at 2 years old and started racing at Perry Barr. My trainer continued to feed me well and exercised me regularly. I had checks at vets and muscle men manipulating me, I was in prime condition and performed to the best of my capabilities. I was stepped up in trip and started winning some good races, then Richard began to take me Open racing all over the country. I knew I was going to have some excitement every time Richard’s car drew up at the kennels and I couldn’t wait to get in the car and go racing.

    I won several races and won a race on a SKY night where I was paraded around the track like I was a Queen!

    I did eventually pick up an injury, an injury I could have picked up in a field just as easy as on a race track. My owner tried to fix me but alas I had to be retired.

    I am now 9 and a half years old and still live at Richard’s place with a few others of my kind, we all get on but I am so jealous when Richard opens his car door and my friends jump in to go racing, I try my best to jump in there with them and go for another race, sadly I can’t, but I still get walked every day, I get fed well every day, I get the occasional run about in the nearby farmers field, I have had a good life and I am enjoying my retirement despite being unable to race.

    Often when out walking with Richard he talks to me about the people out there that want to stop me and my kind from racing. I don’t understand why anyone would want to stop us from doing what we love to do. I know that thousands of my kind are rehomed upon retirement from racing and live out their lives in similar conditions to myself.

    There are a few scary fairy tales about dogs being abused but Richard and I both know, along with thousands of other sensible people that these are just a small minority of cases and the people that want to stop me and my kind racing glorify these negatives when in reality the vast majority of us greyhounds have a great life, I really wouldn’t want to be any other animal!

    Time for a snooze now and I’ll dream about catching that hare!

    Yours Bella

    Co.Cork

  109. Trudy Baker

    November 5, 2008 at 10:44 am

    Yesssssssssssssssssss………….

    MASSACHUSETTS VOTES NO – THATS A BIG FAT NO – TO GREYHOUND RACING!!!

  110. D Hilsley

    November 6, 2008 at 1:52 am

    Amanda/ Trudy
    Are there a lot of greyhounds who get homed and then are brought back to the rescue centre because the new owners can’t cope and what are the general reasons for them not coping.

  111. Trudy Baker

    November 6, 2008 at 5:24 am

    Very poetic Richard
    If only we could believe you have had a drastic change of heart and attitude.

    Bella’s story is a far cry from your belief of how greyhounds should be treated, which you revealed less than a year ago on what you thought was a ‘private forum’.

    Thankfully, it was not private and your true colours can be very graphically seen here – a leaflet printed in your honour.

    http://ga.redblackandgreen.net/pdf/newell%20leaflet.pdf

  112. Galty(tom)

    November 6, 2008 at 8:35 am

    Amanda
    I am glad you looked into it after the claims Peters made that any greyhound rehomed by the RGT was rehomed 5 times.

    Think most people would (except JODIE)would have fell about laughting and ignored the stupidy of his rantings.

    As you have investigated his claims for your self, do they stand up or did he????????.

    Your mention of that site brings back memories of my finest hour when out of a membership of 152 of these 48 where banned in a single go LOL because of a post I put up on another site.

    Main point is did you find out the % of dogs that have to be rehomed again by the RGT.

  113. mrs donna scase

    November 6, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    trudy baker, you are the lowest of low this is the sort of thing we would expect from someone like you i refer to the graphic details in your posting but this is probably another photo from spain which is where you should be right now spreading your word and then see the consequences .i wonder is this an accusation of what richard newell has done if so please tell me more .

  114. Trudy Baker

    November 6, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    Hi Donna
    I would suggest Richard Newell is the lowest of the low by trying to convey to the public he is a compassionate and caring greyhound breeder and owner.

    Please read the leaflet again Donna, his statements were copied from a forum – ask him – I’m sure he wont deny writing them and I am not inferring that he was responsible for the drowning of any greyhounds.

    The poor greyhound pictured on the leaflet was found on an Irish beach, only a few years ago, in very similar circumstances to these two defenceless creatures who were so cruelly disposed of in August. (Rest in Peace innocent ones)
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0801/1217368811973.html

    And you dare to suggest I have stooped so low?

    I make no apologies for telling the truth because if I and the likes of Amanda didn’t, the exploited greyhound would continue to be over bred, abused, raced to its death or slaughtered….and for what?!

  115. richard newell

    November 7, 2008 at 5:06 am

    No you don’t Trudy simply because the GA write lies.
    At least you had the courtesy to ask permission unlike the GA that did not ask for any permission and purposely used what I said out of context on a very sad event that occured in May 2007.

    When I said “if any of my pups are not fast enough they have to go” Go as in sold on or found a home! I have rehomed plenty of greys in the last 15 years, one grey I paid £300 to be fixed up after a career ending injury, I am told the family that took him moved him to Canada with them! I could have chosen the PTS option, many would, and that is their perogative, however I didn’t and the family that now have him love him to bits.

    I have never and would never have a healthy pup put down! The trip I took down to the vets was a hard one! It was for 2 pups that were both not eating properly and were being sick, they both had internal defects and the vet recommended they be put down, you are welcome to contact me for the name of the Vet who will confirm this to you. GA even rang me pretending to be someone else and asked me about the incident, I gave them the full facts of the matter, I did no wrong, the pups were both weak and could have picked up illnesses or disease that would have put the other healthy pups in danger. Of course GA didn’t print any of this!!

    I did say hundreds of greys are put down before they make the track, when you consider I lost 2 in a litter of 6 through freaks of nature I stand by what I said “hundreds of greys do not make the track” BUT not thousands like the GA falsely claim.

    I have been in contact with a libel solicitor and I have every right to take GA to court for malicious falsehood BUT my solicitor also advises me this is a costly action and could give GA yet more publicity, that’s the last thing I want to do. Being a family man with 3 children I do not have the funds to take GA to court But they already know that through their phone call to me. So my name is out there blackened by the GA scum. Should I ever come in to some additional monies then I still have the right to proceed with legal proceedings. I certainly doubt they will ever remove the story or apologize in public to me even though they know they have bent the truth to suit their own end on what was a very sad event! GA are scum.

    For anyone that didn’t know that the GA spread lies hopefully my posting will put the record straight. GA tell lies to sensationalise and they don’t care who they harm along the way.

    Anyway Trudy, thanks for giving me the opportunity to put the TRUTH out there!

    As I have said before anyone is welcome to come visit Bella and my other greys, all living a very happy and fulfilling life.

  116. richard newell

    November 7, 2008 at 5:09 am

    So Trudy, will you apolgize? Will the GA ever apologize? I doubt it because you all just make it up as you go along and finally you have given me the chance to put the truth out there!

  117. richard newell

    November 7, 2008 at 5:29 am

    AManda “Good for you, Donna. I’m happy to debate but I’m not happy about a ‘harrassment campaign’ where families and homes are brought into things”

    Hmm, then what do you call what Peters and GA and now Trudy have done to me and my family?

  118. Galty(tom)

    November 7, 2008 at 9:46 am

    Trudy

    Amanda tells the truth from her Limited point of view.

    You quote things that others have said with out noing one way or other if thyey are true, if you had read the Nov2007 thread and where a fair person you would not have done what you did.

    http://www.greyhound-data.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=407701&x=2

  119. richard newell

    November 7, 2008 at 10:16 am

    Trudy, GA have been spreading malicious lies about me based on nothing other than bending what I said to suit their own ends. That is a FACT. I have let it lie for a year giving you enough rope to hang yourselves! Peters is a liar, he has cleverly worded around what I said based on a very distressing time for me after being with them pups since the day they were born and being with them every day including having to watch them be cut open by a Vet in an autopsy where it was obvious the Vet’s diagnosis was correct. It is something called megasargofagus (not sure of spelling) basically the pups at weaning age cannot swallow their food properly it gets stuck in their digestive tract and they then sick it back up, they grow weak as no nutrients reach their bodies and as their brothers and sisters grow they get picked on and eventually killed by their littermates. It happens, do you not think when I wrote what I did that I was angry and distressed about having to take that trip to the vet? GA took it completely out of context knowing full well having spoken to me about it and me explaining to them what had happened yet still they decided to label me an eviul animal abuser! This has been with me since the day them pups were put down and sliced open by the vet. Neither you nor GA care about me or them pups in my opinion despite the suffering I have had to endure, you are the evil ones in my mind for taking advantage of me, a law abiding, compassionate greyhound owner and breeder of 1 litter!

    Fortunately, as you have never even bothered to ask, the second litter from the mother produced 8 pups, all healthy and strong with no defects, but then you and GA only have your own interests as heart.

    Still no apology? Will the leaflets be taken from the GA site? I doubt it, too ignorant to know what is right and what is wrong.

    Now, after all of this time I give you the truth, what sad people you are to herass and blacken my name when I have done nothing wrong, have never had a healthy pup put down and never will. I support greyhound racing, greys love to race and I will do everything I can to show up you people for what you are!

  120. Mr.B.Scase

    November 7, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    trudy, i think there should be an apology from yourself and the GA for what you have said and done it sickens me to think that you can be so ignorant arrogant and lie for your own ends this goes for the GA aswell .
    i personally think that richard did the right thing as any caring owner or breeder would have done , are you saying trudy a vet would put an innocent pup to sleep for this condition , i wonder what the vetinary practice would think of your remarks .

  121. Trudy Baker

    November 7, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    Richard
    As you well know you are trying to divert attention away from the real issues by highlighting the euthanasia of your pups. All differences of opinion aside – truly sorry about the pups.

    I have read the thread from start to finish where your statements were extracted from and apart from being word for word perfect on GA’s website and leaflet, in no way were they taken out of context.

    Galty
    As you like GD forum so much, perhaps readers may want to meander through this thread, which largely condones Richard’s sentiments and further expands on them. UGH!
    http://www.greyhound-data.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=277894

    Donna
    I have not lied, so please do not feel sickened, save it for when you read Richards comments on the GD thread!

    Do you now want the full unedited thread posted on here, showing EVERY comment Richard made and in what context it was said?

    Or do you retract your damand for an apology?

    For the record – in my humble opinion, a caring owner or breeder would not further perpetuate the breeding of greyhounds whereby 13,600 were ‘unaccounted’ for last year.

  122. richard newell

    November 8, 2008 at 2:55 am

    Trudy…

    “As you well know you are trying to divert attention away from the real issues by highlighting the euthanasia of your pups. All differences of opinion aside – truly sorry about the pups”

    So now you are holding me accountable for all of your “real issues” You and GA hold me personally responsible for every grey that has ever been put to sleep? Are you labelling every greyhound owner an evil animal abuser or just me? Why single out my name? Why not put up Lord Lipseys name or any of the other wealthy people that run and govern this sport or is it because you are cowards and only attack innocent family men like myself as you know the chances of me taking you to court are slim?

    Amanda I feel sorry for you because you are part of this organisation that has no morals, are happy to herass a law abiding citizen and my family name, just because I don’t agree with GA’s views?

    Brian, they haven’t the decency to admit when they are in the wrong. I still don’t see where I have said anything that isn’t the truth other than it being taken out of context.

    I can take my greys or my Jack Russell down to the vets and have any of them put down, there is no law against it, it doesn’t mean that I do or intend to do it does it?

    Your country Trudy is killing innocent Afghans and Iraqi’s, does that make you a murderer?

    Trudy and the GA are so ignorant they don’t have the intelligence to work out what I said.

    I await any legal action against me for cruelty to animals, I await any visit from any authorities, I have dog licences for all of my dogs, there are none buried in my garden although you are welcome to dig up my plot because I need a lawn laying, anyone is welcome to visit my place and see for themselves Bella and her comrades but if I’m out I’m probably in our neighbours 8 acre field so take a walk up the lane turn right and you’ll see them running around with me enjoying themselves and keeping themselves fit.

    You simply accuse people of being an evil animal abuser with no proof other than words that I repeat were taken out of context on what was a very sad and emotional event.

    I’ll ask you one last question Trudy: would you have had those pups put down on the advice of the vet to protect the other healthy pups in the litter and prevent them from being torn apart by their littermates which in nature would have been the most likely outcome? If you fail to answer I’ll assume you would which in your mind makes you an evil animal abuser.

  123. Amanda Wells

    November 8, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    Hello Di – apologies for delay in responding. Have a sick hound…

    As far as ‘bouncing’ hounds go, it depends really. We live in a very disposable society.

    My first hound from the RGT bounced prior to coming here – the home he was in immediately before he came here was unsuitable for lots of reasons but essentially they didn’t realise what they were taking on and with the behavioural issues my hound would have been hard to home anyway.

    Going on a recent homecheck I did, I knocked back someone on the grounds that they kept telling me they knew better about the fencing being adequate (only 4 foot high) I tried to explain but the impression I was left with was that they weren’t listening on this issue, it was to be their first greyhound and they hadn’t researched the breed, so it was a no. I think they were under the impression because they’d had dogs before, they ‘knew it’. I believe a lot of people don’t understand the breed and the issues which always concerns me.

    For my own ‘bounced’ hound. To this day, I don’t know what went wrong. He was a 6 month old pup (picked up as a stray – cyst on pad made him lame) and the family were very positive, took on board the issues and in general, made the ‘perfect’ family. Although Max was very hand shy, they were prepared to work through it and they did. They had two other dogs (not hounds) On paper and after two checks, they appeared perfect. Six months later totally out of the blue, they phoned me and said I’d need to go pick him up, they’d decided he didn’t fit in with their other dogs. Tried to discuss the issues with them, but I could tell that they’d made their choice and my priority was Max, not them. No idea what went so wrong, but I found out later that they had taken on a BC pup days after Max was picked up. I think the novelty of a ‘rescue’ dog had worn off – their other two dogs were bought as pups. In retrospect, I still can’t see what went so wrong becuase Max didn’t display any obvious issues and still hasn’t and everytime I homecheck for hounds or any other breed (i’m involved with several other breed rescues) I have that in the back of my head. But knowing from other breed rescues, the problem is society. Max was successfully homed afterwards and has been there for four years now so it worked out well in the end. Its never happened since (touch wood)

    All the hounds I home are homed with the stipulation that I retain ownership, they are chipped to me and I require to be informed immediately if they die, go missing and they must be returned to me if anything goes wrong. I keep in touch with all owners and have a good relationship with them all and to date, they’ve all kept me up to date. All hounds are neutered, vaccinated, chipped, flea’d and wormed and a few have also had dentals. I have to say I am very strict when it comes to homing however better to be strict than to put any hound at any form of risk.

    There is a flapping kennels nearby. Its on the road so if anyone stops to admire the hounds, the guy asks them if they want one. Kind of people who end up walking away from this kennels ten minutes afterwards with their ‘new pet’, are totally not the kind of people who are able to look after themselves let alone a hound. One poor bitch was let off the lead just hours after she’d been handed over and was killed by being run over. These people went back to tell the kennels guy. What did he do? Handed them over another one. We’ve spoken to this guy and even offered him to contact us for rehoming but he hasn’t to date and to be honest I don’t think he will.

    Fortunately the majority of hound rescues are very strict with homechecks and conditions they place on adopters.

    But I would undoubtedly say the biggest issue with homing hounds is the issues they come with usually due to lack of socialisation, unfamiliar environment, SA etc. Just my opinion.

  124. Amanda Wells

    November 8, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    Tom – your comment on 6th November, 2008 at 8:35 am (apologies again)

    I really don’t remember Tony mentioning the RGT. It was my issues with the RGT that were discussed there. I’m still a member and if you can recall rough date (my brain is minced – I’m thinking it was maybe 2001 or so?), I’ll check back. If you recall the RGT themselves were concerned around the issues relating to the branch I dealt with and shortly afterwards there were ‘changes’ to that branch? If i get time tomorrow, I’ll see whether I can get time to look back and see but i’m certain the only RGT issues were the ones that I had, which brought further issues into play.

    The RGT made some odd claims if I remember rightly when I had the huge argument with them. Again, more or less, ultimately they refused to answer.

    I’ve just received the annual report for a major all breed dog rescue and checked through. Nowhere does it report returned dogs or whether the total figures include dogs returned. I might write to them and ask if I get time and/or remember.

    Richard – next time I’m in Ireland, I may take you up on the offer of meeting Bella and her friends… But sorry – what has happened to you and your family? Am feeling like I’m missing something…

    Tom (again). Limited point of view? With respect, I’m on the other side of it therefore my opinion is not ‘limited’ but the conclusion I have come to from my own experiences. I don’t describe your viewpoint as ‘limited’ and never will because I believe you simply see the solution differently.

    Richard – “Amanda I feel sorry for you because you are part of this organisation that has no morals, are happy to herass a law abiding citizen and my family name, just because I don’t agree with GA’s views?”

    Am thinking ‘thats rich’ because you are part of an industry that over produces and slaughters healthy dogs however I’m not holding you responsible for what David Smith, for example, did. Trudy isn’t part of GA. I’m not part of GA. I run the Scottish campaign to raise awareness on the plight of the racing greyhound. We hold the ultimate aim to ban greyhound racing and as we initially set up as a GA branch, we held on to the name and still wanted to come under the umbrella (its all in our constitution) simply because we do involve ourselves in *some* things in England. We share the same aims and objectives but our approaches do differ because the greyhound issues in Scotland are different. I have no idea why on earth you ‘feel sorry for me’ but please – don’t. I know where my morals are.

  125. D Hilsley

    November 10, 2008 at 12:59 pm

    Amanda

    Thank you for your reply.
    It seems to me that whatever the breed of dog, people just don’t understand them . Obviously with greyhounds a 5/6ft fence is a must and letting them off leads is only for the privileged (extremely well behaved)few and again only in certain places LOL !!!!
    I really do think that this country needs an extensive new training regime to make owners understand how to behave with dogs and then there would be a lot less dogs sent to the rescues and then sent back again . There is a book by John Fisher called ‘ Think Dog ‘ and it is a must for all dog owners .It discusses all the topics like SA, socialisation etc. and tells you why these problems happen and how to overcome them .

    Back to greys again, just out of interest,one of my retired dogs got so terribly distressed by the awful fireworks we had on Wednesday & Friday night that he was physically sick. I had to tranqulise him on Saturday night, yet when he was racing the fireworks never bothered him . 2 of my racers ran on Friday and they were fine. I am sure it is because their minds are pre occupied with the excitement of racing .

    Regards
    Di Hilsley

  126. Amanda Wells

    November 10, 2008 at 4:47 pm

    Hi

    I agree to a certain extent that people don’t understand breeds and their needs – Staffies being the obvious other breed which is massively misunderstood. Sadly thats not an issue thats easy to solve though I do try to work on it. Its not just dogs that are the issue – I’ve had everything from dumped rats, cats and mice to a GSD x through here. I can’t see a way of changing this though although I do believe the new puppy farm legislation may go some way to stopping a lot of issues relating to breeding defects and sick dogs. This will undoubtedly reduce the strain on rescue but it won’t be enough.

    With greyhounds its very different to other breeds issues because essentially you have a 3 – 4 year old dog who doesn’t know how to be a pet dog and doesn’t understand how it is to live in a house. There’s also the issue of lack of socialisation with other breeds/animals and that they’ve rarely, if ever, been left alone, where a non-greyhound won’t necessarily face these issues. I do strongly believe more needs to be done about this early on in a greyhounds life. There doesn’t appear to be any preparation for when they finish racing. Its hard for them to adjust. I don’t think my Tully ever really has.

    All of mine are here because they would be hard to home due to their issues. Only three out of my five can be let off lead but even then, only in certain places. Both also have arthritis due to racing injuries so it wouldn’t be possible even if they didn’t have fear aggression/no recall. But without exception, I think the issues they have are down to being racing greyhounds and not pets. Even the Lurcher has issues relating to being kennelled from a young age (his mum was a racing greyhound dumped pregnant by collie type) and rehomed several times. That could have happened to any type of dog I suppose but as much as I adore collie x lurchers, they are a bizarre mix of personality and breed traits. And I do feel situations like my lurcher was in is completely ignored. For example, the RGT would not have picked up a litter of Lurchers. No different to breed rescues (although they do bend the rules) though.

    None of my hounds even wake from their sleep during fireworks. I’ve never really had any reaction from the hounds. However the Lurcher barks at every firework he hears. But then he barks at everything! One thing I have noticed with my hounds is if one reacts to somehitng, they’ll all react. I wonder if this is the case as far as ‘fears’ go? Some of the hounds I’ve homed have been in bad ways due to fireworks however DAP defusers and Kalms can work for them.

    Am off to Amazon now to look for ‘Think Dog’. I don’t really do behaviouralist stuff as such – I think I’m just very tolerant of the issues they have and believe that a safe secure environment and lots of pampering works for me. I think mine are all happy here and although they all have their individual issues, they are settled, relaxed and all have such fab individual personalities.

  127. D Hilsley

    November 11, 2008 at 7:47 am

    Amanda
    At the beginning of this year I had 3 retired greys at home. Rover was the hardest by far and had also spent the longest time in kennels ( 4 1/2 years ) but I reduced his SA considerably and also his aggression to other dogs when we are out walking , which was probably more fear of the unknown mixed with his sheer desire and determination to kill small fluffy things (grins). I did this by sticking to the pack leader theory ( which definately works) and to a strict routine.He could however never be let off a lead( I tried a couple of times !! ) but he was always more than happy having a potter around my garden .
    Lady adapted to the house with no problem as did Treasure, although I did have a problem between Rover and Treasure but after a little fight between them ,when I wasn’t there,it was sorted out . I have lost Lady & Rover( cancer )this year ( sobs) and have just 5 weeks ago rehomed Lulu who had been in the kennels all of her 6 1/2 years . Again I have had no problems, it is my job to lead her and tell her what I expect ie: the settee is mine and she can use it when I am not on there LOL !!!! It is ,to me, very interesting watching her get more confident and more relaxed being a pet as each week passes .
    I hope you enjoy and learn as much as I have from the Think Dog book and can then put your knowledge to good use in preparing new owners on how to cope and live happily with their new dogs .
    BTW I had lurchers before the greyhounds and have a lot of passion for them aswell .
    As for fireworks I haven’t found that the fear is passed on for the sake of it, just a bad experience can kick start it in some .

  128. Amanda Wells

    November 11, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    Sorry to hear about your hounds. Its awful to lose them. But so much worse when its ‘premature’.

    Sam’s fear aggression is particular towards black labs but its a nightmare because they are such “rude” dogs and most owners don’t appear to believe labs need to be onlead or at least, control them so they don’t bother a very distressed, muzzled, on lead greyhound. Sam was “retired” at 21 months because he is/was terrified of men and the trainer couldn’t get near enough to him to do anything with him. He’s improved loads – he’s now 10 and a lot more relaxed in his old age. He will tolerate men though you can tell he’s just not comfortable in the company of men he doesn’t know. He has had seizures which means I don’t allow him to get into stressful situations any more because the drugs to treat seizures are barbituate based and the prognosis if he ever starts the drugs is less than six months. So far he doesn’t need them.

    Clad has no recall whatsoever. She was one of those hounds who came in with no ‘soul’ behind the eyes and the fractured hock that hadn’t been given time to heal didn’t help because she was bothered by that. It took a long time and lots of patience to get her to react to simple things like being petted. She’s pretty bombproof with kids, small furries and other dogs and is the kind of greyhound you use to encourage people to rehome one! But she does like to dig – carpets and duvets are her speciality. I’d thought that was boredom however I think its more about nesting now because she’ll do it even after she’s supposed to be exhausted after a long walk.

    Tully is different. He was bouncing off walls and urinating blood when he came here. His owner was busted for giving his hounds cocaine last year. The penny dropped on so many issues and having researched the after effects of that in dogs, it would explain a lot of the problems we’ve dealt with and the ones he still has. Tully can’t bear to be without Clad – he howls and causes real damage if he is left without her. He likes to be near her at all times. If she ever needs to go to the vet, he has to come too. She isn’t so bothered about him but I think bitches are much more aloof than the boys.

    All of the rehomed hounds have settled down although some have issues. I rehomed four hounds to the same home. They live on a big country estate and managed to bring down a deer – you worry so much about small furries and it never occurs to you that something like deer would be at risk… I think all of the homes my hounds are in, without exception, are perfect for them.

    As for fireworks. One of my older bitches,Linda, who my parents fostered until she died had heart problems and she literally had a heart attack one night due to fireworks. I’ll never forget how distressed my dad was over that – he only had her 18 months but he was so attached to her. She died a few weeks after. Another heart attack which, although she was a very sick hound, I believe that night with the fireworks brought her end closer.

    Anyway I’m rambling. Have ordered Think Dog and will let you know what I think once I’ve read it.

  129. Charlie

    November 13, 2008 at 12:41 pm

    I personally couldn’t care less that a small number of trainers “feed their dogs steak”, rehome them with friends, yadda yadda – the fact remains that even genuinely caring owners/trainers are actively supporting, participating in and boosting the profits of an activity that causes thousands of dogs per year to be destroyed in their prime, or who (if they’re very unlucky) get shipped abroad to fates even worse than death.

    If you care so much about dogs, why try to whitewash the whole industry with your pollyanna tales of retired hounds living in domestic bliss?

    Why not instead unite and withdraw from the racing industry unless, and until, the “few” bad apples have been forced out of business?

    If you care so much, why not show it this way? With all due respect to GA (who I support) you would get more media coverage, and see faster results, than years of campaigning by activists and animal lovers has so far achieved.

    Is the thrill of seeing your dog race against another worth SO much that you blackout the knowledge that the racing industry causes the suffering and death of healthy dogs on a massive scale?

    Because, if it is – I’m sorry, but you’re right down there with the worst abusers, as accomplices who are facilitating their actions by your own selfishness and apathy.

    I’m challenging you now, please: to either take appropriate and lawful public action within your own industry, involving the media and with clear accountability and criteria for what you want – or from now on to remain silent when it receives due criticism by people who are appalled at the loss of life, and the suffering, that goes on needlessly each year in the UK (and abroad, but that’s another issue).

    Before anyone wonders (or whinges), I’ve owned 3 retired greys over the years, 2 of whom are sadly no longer with me, and like most other people who care about this issue I do not fit any stereotypes of “scum” that the racing apologists happen to care to throw at us.

  130. D Hilsley

    November 14, 2008 at 4:13 am

    Charlie

    Once again in this life we have the scenario that all those who play by the rules have to stop because of those that don’t play by the rules .
    It is time to start hitting back at the bad ones and stop penalising the good ones .

    Do none of the ‘antis’ not think that if they are successful in banning greyhound racing then the bad ones in our sport will just go underground and the abuse will continue.

    Every greyhound I buy is one that will be treated well and will always get a home with me after their racing days .

    It is time for you all to pull together and stop knocking the good ones and concentrate on ousting out the bad ones and not just in the greyhound world .

  131. Lisa

    November 14, 2008 at 6:27 am

    Sorry Charlie, no matter how well you care for your dog/s, taking on a dog knowing you’ll be getting rid/selling/rehoming the dog after a set amount of time is very wrong. Dogs build strong bonds with their owners what gives you the right to take a dog on knowing you’ll be breaking that bond after a set amount of time.

  132. Lisa

    November 14, 2008 at 6:33 am

    Sorry I didn’t read your post properly, I just realised you said the dogs retire with you. I assume this means they are all kept as family members within your home.

  133. Charlie

    November 14, 2008 at 8:47 am

    D, I respect that you care about your own dogs, but does it not bother you at all that for nothing more than your own enjoyment you’re furthering the interests of abusers?

    That the dogs YOUR dog beats in a race, or bumps, may have a short painful life and an inhumane death ahead of them?

    If you have a child, would you enter them in a fun school competition, knowing that their competitors may meet miserable deaths, or be PTS the minute they fail to turn a profit? Of course not!

    And how do you deal with the overbreeding issue? For every proven racer you buy and look after for life, there are dogs and puppies being literally thrown away, before the few who can race make it to the tracks.

    There are ALWAYS going to be superfluous dogs, dogs who just won’t chase, can’t run, or are not suitable – I cannot understand how any dog lover can ignore this issue. My first dog alone was one of a litter of eight puppies according to Greyhound Data – only four raced, with varying success: the rest have vanished into who knows where.

    Regarding the unfairness of it all – do you not understand that this isn’t like the issue of, say, binge drinking, in which governments and health bodies consider restrictions on all of us?

    I put it to you that you are ultimately as culpable as the abusers – because the racing prize money your hounds compete for, the industry that facilitates the races from trap to high street bookies, and many owners of dogs they race against, are all part of the same industry which causes misery to countless thousands of gentle healthy dogs each year. You aren’t racing your dogs in isolation here.

    I bank with one of the ethical banks that doesn’t support the arms trade, because I care about who and what I associate myself with, and what causes I support – isn’t it time that the pro-racing, pro-dog people thought it through – and refused to be associated financially with the abusers out there?

    And I utterly reject the argument that making things totally illegal just drives them underground in this scenario – unlike dog fights, which can happen in any space a few yards wide, racing needs tracks or a run, traps, and more than a handful of participants – it’s nowhere near as simple to set up a race that will be credible enough to raise bets, as it is to throw two pitbulls at each other and watch them rip each other apart.

    Finally, why do people who say they care about dogs spend so much time attacking us “antis” (name calling, ad hominem attacks and so on, all feature in the posts above, and on most online discussions about this issue) – and yet I see no ongoing campaign in the media, or anywhere else, whereby you all take a strong united stance each time an abused dog, or a dead dog with their ears hacked off, is found on wasteland or drowned in a river?

    My mum used to tell me to clean my own room up, or she’d do it for me and throw everything in the bin – I don’t mean to be rude, but people like you have failed to clean up your own industry, even on issues as simple and non-controversial as safe track design: thousands of dogs are STILL suffering and dying each year, so I’m afraid that telling people like me we have no right to get involved, just doesn’t hold water.

    Anyway – give your dogs a hug, and please think about what I’m asking here, and what you can do to pursuade the people who DON’T care about dogs to back off – not those of us who do.

  134. Charlie

    November 14, 2008 at 8:57 am

    Hi Lisa, there seems to be some confusion (not surprising in a thread this length!) – I’m anti-racing, and have adopted 3 ex-racers over the years, giving them each a home for life. 2 are now gone (RIP) PTS when they became too ill with cancer to walk: my current hound has countless behavioural issues solely as a result of the way he was raised – away from other dogs, and in a kennel, not a home.

    Which is a whole other issue! And one for a later post, perhaps.

    Charlie

  135. Lisa

    November 14, 2008 at 9:31 am

    Ah! Very sorry Charlie, that’ll teach me for jumping on a thread without reading it properly! My post should have been aimed at D Hilsley.

  136. D Hilsley

    November 14, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    Lisa
    Glad you made the right connection LOL !!!!
    Yes my racers come home to me and I adore them ( smiles). I wouldn’t have it any other way and I dread the day when I bring a racer home which really cannot get on with my other dogs, but I am in a very lucky position in which I know my trainer will always look after my dogs . As far as I am concerned any dog that comes into my life stays in my life .

    Charlie

    Yes , it bothers me greatly that some dogs are treated the way that they are, not only greyhounds but all dogs and all animals, which is why I say it is time to act upon all the evils of man. I cannot watch the IAMS advert without thinking about the video I have seen showing the way the dogs they test on are treated, it makes me weep and is just so unncessary. The programme about the fighting dogs, well , just disgusting . At least the majority of greyhounds are treated well when they are racing and if we didn’t have these people wanting everything their own way ie: anti racing, anti hunts brigade we could slowly weed out these animal abusers. IMO because of the anti’s we now have human beings feeling guilty and then instead of having their dogs PTS humanly ( Vets or bolt gun ) we have them panicking and there begins the abuse .
    The anti’s are going about it the wrong way . I personally would rather see a dog live a short life to the full and then humanly PTS than a longer miserable life which ends in an awful death because it’s owners don’t want want the antis on their backs .
    You have to open your eyes and understand that not all humans see animals as pets and maybe not all animals want to be pets. There are many many ‘ pets ‘ in this world that have no life at all .
    Over breeding of greyhounds is a big problem that even the racing fraternity agree is a problem and is something that needs addressing immediately as does puppy farming . The breeder I generally buy from in Ireland would ( and does ) put these puppy farmers to shame .
    I will not hold myself responsible for the ignorant b**stards that abuse animals as I will not hold myself responsible for all the publicans who allow people to get steaming drunk in their pubs and then watch them go off and abuse all and sundry, I am a publican and I hold myself responsible for those that drink in my pub and I WILL NOT serve any one that is already over the top and I take full responsibility for my pub .

    We live in an awful throw away society ( grrrr ) and all I personally ask in life is that while animals are alive they are treated with the respect they deserve .

    As far as name calling to the antis, I haven’t myself come across an anti in person, but I am led to believe that these people will not listen to anyone but themselves and IMO maybe it is time that the antis stopped spreading so many lies and started working with the racing people to we get the best deal for the dogs which is in most peoples interest , ie: we MUST together stop this selling of dogs to spain !!!!!!!!!

    One thing I can’t always understand is why so may antis say ” this greyhound is a retired racer which is why he has so many behavioural issues ” … I have just asked my husband the following question …. ‘What difference do you see in the lurchers we bought as puppies and our retired greyhounds ?? ‘ and his answer was “none, if anything the greys are better behaved because you yourself have learnt more about dogs” . I have 4 customers of mine that through me have homed greyhounds and none of them have any issues with their greyhounds !!!!! As I have said in a previous post, one of my recently departed greys was a nightmare when I first had him home but after a while with guidance from me he improved immensly,sadly like you I lost him very suddenly to cancer as I did another of my retired greys ( both this year ~ I am very very sad ) and I miss them both very very much .
    I really do wish that you antis could meet my trainer and her husband and see the way all our dogs live because I defy you to say they are abused.
    I would never ever put my dogs with someone that didn’t look after them to the highest standard . maybe if all the greyhound trainers in this world were like mine all you antis would be redundant .
    As for injuries, my dear retired grey ‘Treasure’ has put his hip out running around my garden with my newly retired bitch !!!, but only tonight my trainers husband has said , bring him up to the kennels and we will treat him , you don’t get that with normal pets eh !!!!.

    On a final note , please tell me what behavioural issues your dog has and I may be able to help you .
    And I have given my dogs hugs but they were from me not you LOL !!!!!

    Di

  137. Trudy Baker

    November 15, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    Through details obtained from a request under the Freedom Of Information act, greyhound protection groups will be holding a Remembrance Ceremony tomorrow, Sunday 16th, at Belle Vue in memory of the greyhounds who have been euthanased at the stadium since September 2007.
    In eight separate months, 39 greyhounds were pts due to an injury and a further 7 at the owner’s request.

    Please consider one minute’s silence at 12 noon as a mark of respect for these greyhounds that have died in the name of ‘sport’.

    Run fast – run free at last………

  138. mrs donna scase

    November 15, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    charlie,

    you seem to know a lot about the greyhound industry so can you answer a simple question where do the anti’s get their figures from ?

    i would like an answer on this because none of the other anti’s including tony peters can answer this .

  139. Trudy Baker

    November 16, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Donna

    I have posted many times on here detailing figures.

    Here are just some of them.

    18,864 Greyhound Retirement forms processed last year by the NGRC – Supplied by NGRC Calendar Magazine

    13,600 greyhound puppies unaccounted for last year in Ireland. 12,819 greyhounds exported to UK in 2007 -supplied by the Irish Greyhound Board under a Freedom of Information request.

    46 greyhounds euthanased at Belle Vue in 8 separate months over the last 12 months, then used for research and dissection, paid for by the BGRB – supplied by Liverpool University under a Freedom of Information request.

    If there are any other figures you would like me try and ascertain, please let me know and I will do my best to supply them.

    Regards
    Trudy

  140. Mr.B.Scase

    November 17, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    trudy baker

    right you do not have to register dogs which go flapping or independant racing, you do not have to notify the ngrc when you find a new home for your own greyhounds all you need to do is notify the ngrc that it has been retired .
    so where can you obtain true and not fasical figures from .

    where do your figures come from about bellvue or is this another piece of the anti’s spin

  141. Trudy Baker

    November 17, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    Mr Scase

    I have told you the Belle Vue figures have been obtained through a request under the Freedom Of Information act.

    DO NOT SUGGEST IT IS ANOTHER PIECE OF ANTI’S SPIN.

    I am sure if it was ‘spin’, Mr Watkins – your new GBGB chairman and a solicitor by profession – would have me in court faster than you could say ‘its a fair cop gov’ 🙂

    I am sure you will have realised by now that true figures are hard to obtain – at least from the industry.
    But they are out there, it just takes time, a deep love for greyhounds, a passion for justice, a hatred for corruption and exploitation to eventually be rewarded with the truth!

    Something I suspect, you will not want to hear in any event.

  142. Trudy Baker

    November 17, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Oh and please do tell me which of my figures you consider farcical?

  143. Amanda Wells

    November 17, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    I posted yesterday but it didn’t post and then the site went funny.

    The basics of it was Donna/Brian. You tell me how many dogs you think there are?

    And does it really matter if its 200 or 20,000?

    Healthy greyhounds die. End of argument.

  144. Mr.B.Scase

    November 17, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    trudy,

    you wouldnt know the truth if it bit your bum , i just wonder how many so called pets NOT GREYHOUNDS will suffer this christmas perhaps you can find those facts and figures although i wouldnt consider you wouldnt give a darn .

    amanda,

    end of argument i suppose you think you have won but the lies being told by the anti’s such as they closed the stow supposedly that is the kind of rubbish tony peters and the like would want you to beleive .

  145. Amanda Wells

    November 17, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    Its sod all to do with lies, Brian.

    Are you denying that any greyhounds die due to your “sport”?

    Its not about ‘winning’. Its about stopping the unnecessary death and destruction.

    Forget personalities and who says what because I don’t care less about individuals. I only care about one thing – greyhounds.

    Maybe it makes you feel better to point the finger and scream abotu ‘lies’ but thats just dodging the reality.

    FACT – greyhounds die after providing human entertainment.

    I ask you again – does it really matter how many?

    Do you really think its acceptable for this to continue?

  146. Trudy Baker

    November 17, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    I challenge you Mr Scase, to disprove any facts or figures I have quoted on this blog or on Greytexploitations website.

    To seriously consider taking that challenge, you will need to read the APGAW and Donoughue reports in their entirety.

    For the record, I care about all animal and human exploitation, but as in the case of the greyhound, no other domestic animal is over bred and culled to the same extent, with the use of EU funding – for entertainment purposes.

    No other dog is used as purely a betting medium and then disposed of in huge numbers once they can no longer provide a service.

    But yet again, we see a supporter of the racing industry, desperately attempt to deflect attention from their failing argument by raising other animal welfare issues.

    How very sad it is, that you concern yourself with the welfare of other animals – whilst greyhounds in YOUR sport are exploited day in day out and your attempts to address that exploiation consist of fighting the very groups who want to protect and improve welfare for the greyhound.

  147. Mr.B.Scase

    November 19, 2008 at 1:27 pm

    trudy baker,

    i wonder whether you watched the bbc documentry inside out which were saying about the terrible plight of puppy farms of pet dogs not greyhounds but from a breeder who is not supposed to be doing this at least in the greyhound world this does NOT happen so perhaps you anti’s should look at the real problem that is going on and leave greyhound people ALONE .

  148. Shirley Stones

    November 20, 2008 at 11:34 am

    What a sad end for the two year old greyhound, murdered at the Belle Vue track! Such an exploited sad life, but only to be expected from the racing fraternity. It makes me sick to the stomach, having had three rescued exracing greyhounds myself. What beautiful, elegant, gentle creatures they are! Please, please, anyone who can, get to any demos at your nearest track. The sooner greyhound racing is killed in the UK the better!

  149. Amanda Wells

    November 20, 2008 at 11:51 am

    Brian

    There IS a REAL problem in greyhound racing. Surely you are not denying that? Are you asking us to ignore this?

  150. D Hilsley

    November 20, 2008 at 6:26 pm

    Shirley Stones
    What do you mean by “MURDERED” and ” such an exploited sad life “, you have obviously never been to a well kept greyhound kennel and seen how well they are kept and how they respond when they know they are going racing .
    Do humans not work until retirement age ??????
    Last Sunday I asked my trainer yet again “do MY greyhounds enjoy their racing” and her answer was ” absolutely and when they don’t I will tell you and then you can take them home ”
    I repeat what I have said previously that there is no place in greyhound racing for abuse, but unfortunately as in life there are always the few that let everyone else down and we hate them .
    Only today some ‘rich bit of totty’ stopped me and asked if I was a dog walker as she saw me everyday walking my retired greys and after a brief conversation I got the idea that she wanted me to walk her dog for her because although she was rich , didn’t work and lived right on the path to the field , she couldn’t be bothered to walk her own dog even though she said ‘I quite often think he looks unhappy’ and when I said ‘actually I work an 80 hour week so really don’t have the time to walk your dog ‘ she just said ‘oh well if you do fancy walking mine aswell it would help him ‘. You people have no idea about real life .

  151. TrudyB

    November 29, 2008 at 10:58 am

    Does not happen in the greyhound world?__Whats this then http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/ar

  152. TrudyB

    November 29, 2008 at 11:35 am

    Hi Di
    In my opinion Frisby Foreman was 'MURDERED' – he was knowingly subjected to a life threatening situation and then euthanased – in my book placing him in that situation was pre meditated and therefore murder. All this for financial gain – outright exploitation!

    Humans more often than not have a choice where and for how long they work – greyhounds don't.

    Greyhound racing is rife with abuse. The racing industry is a law unto itself. Trainers are reprimanded for causing cruelty and suffering to greyhounds by the NGRC but are not convicted in a criminal court.
    Doping your greyhound with cocaine is breach of NGRC rules – not a welfare issue I may add – but trainers are not convicted for possession of a class A drug in a criminal court. DEFRA fail dismally to implement welfare regulations – to protect the revenue generated by the industry for the government.

  153. TrudyB

    November 29, 2008 at 11:35 am

    I notice your dogs race at Poole – how many trainers attached to Poole do you think 'let everyone else down'? How many abusive trainers do you think you are supporting by claiming there are just a few?
    And what action would you take if you discovered an abusive trainer?

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